Being loyal to Ligonier is becoming rather costly these days.
In all my own coverage of Ligonier’s deeds of darkness, I have chosen to focus on only those areas in which I have knowledge and documentation, purposely staying away from the Don Kistler aspect of Frank Vance’s original accusations until I knew more than just “Frank said.” As time has progressed, Frank Vance has provided more and more evidence that all his original accusations seem to be valid. Today is no different.
On November 28, RC Sproul and the board of directors fired Don Kistler, releasing this statement: "In November 2006, the Board of Directors for Ligonier Ministries voted unanimously to dissolve our employment relationship with Don Kistler, Managing Editor of Soli Deo Gloria Publications." We don’t know all the details yet, but what we do know sounds quite fishy, including the fact that Ligonier Ministries still retains ownership of Don Kistler's life work, Soli Deo Gloria. They didn’t like his website? And did they ever talk to him about it? Was it in the original contract that he couldn’t have his own website? Is his website really in competition with Ligonier? I’ve been there several times over the last couple months, and Mark and I considered buying a couple of his excellent books, but since they were only available through Ligonier, as was posted on his website at that time, we decided to wait, since we are not financially supporting Ligonier in any way at this time. So, if Don was selling his books on his website THROUGH Ligonier, that just sounds like free advertising for Ligonier to me. That really cannot be the reason.
Check out Frank’s new article for his ideas, but I think it’s time to call for the resignation of the Ligonier Board of Directors. The purpose of a board, as far as I know, is not only to help guide and direct an organization, but to hold them accountable when need be. I realize that many ministry boards are actually made up of “yes” men, as this one appears to be, but that is truly not in their own best interests. A board should desire to see a ministry be fully biblical in all areas of life, first of all, and should do all that would be in the best interests of furthering that ministry – not just bow down to the ministry leader’s every wish and whim. I am very disappointed in this decision by Ligonier’s Board of Directors. If Don Kistler has truly done something worthy of being fired, and that'd better be something FAR worse than Tim Dick representing a Christian ministry to sue another Christian, then Ligonier Ministries should be bold enough to name the offense directly and tell why it was something that could not be corrected (websites are rather easy to change, I would think), and even show that when confronted with his “sin,” Don Kistler refused to repent.
The last I heard, Don Kistler wasn’t even back to work full time since his stroke in August. They aren't paying him now, so he wasn't a financial strain to Ligonier. Besides, I think he works about as many hours as Tim Dick does, so that couldn’t really be it.
Although Tim Dick and John Duncan are not on the board, from Frank Vance’s account, it appears that they were the impetus behind finding a reason to fire Don Kistler. So, I will reiterate my call for a complete management/board turnover at Ligonier Ministries. Whether directly or indirectly involved in all these recent deeds of darkness, the board of directors and all management should be held directly responsible for the wickedness of these last few months, or in all probability, much longer. Change happens one person at a time, one step at a time. It may not seem like much for one person to make a phone call, but each one adds up. I am asking each person reading this to call Ligonier Ministries at 1-800-435-4343 and ask them for more information about why Don Kistler was fired. Ligonier's donors especially deserve the truth.
Please continue to pray for repentance for the board of directors and management of Ligonier Ministries. RC Sproul is leading this, so pray for his repentance as well. Ligonier's website asks us to partner with them as they proclaim the holiness of God to a world lost and dead in its sin. Now it is time to proclaim the holiness of God to a ministry losing its way in deed after deed of darkness.
Showing posts with label Ligonier. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ligonier. Show all posts
Nov 30, 2006
Nov 13, 2006
Ligonier Lynches Loyal Laborers?
Ligonier's mistreatment of loyal customer service representative the latest evidence of mismanagement
You may remember reading on my blog recently about Meaghan May, a young lady who worked as a customer service representative at Ligonier Ministries during the uproar caused by their unbiblical lawsuit against a professing Christian and subsequent cover-up. Meaghan was the only non-managerial employee at Ligonier who spoke publicly about the lawsuit, and she strongly defended Ligonier's management in comments on this blog.
Well, only a few weeks later, Meaghan is no longer defending Ligonier. In fact, she has left the organization under circumstances that provide the latest evidence of major mismanagement at Ligonier, with implications for all current Ligonier staff.
Meaghan's husband, currently studying for a Masters of Divinity and Counseling Degree at Reformed Theological Seminary, tells the story of her recent plight at Ligonier:
In her blog, Meaghan mentions the three years of trials she endured at Ligonier and how she has been praying about it for the last couple years. She says something about her new job, though, that would be rather puzzling if we were not familiar with the recent happenings on at Ligonier: "I keep waiting for them to be gruff with me if I did something incorrectly, but they are very patient and just excited to see me take on new tasks." I'd like to be able to interpret this comment charitably, but the only way I can understand it is that Meaghan had become so accustomed to verbal abuse at Ligonier that she had begun to think it normal and expected more of the same at her new job.
Ligonier's mistreatment of Meaghan while on the job and continuing as soon as she announced her departure is particularly significant given that she was, after Tim Dick and John Duncan, the most visible staff defender of both the organization and its senior management. Meaghan's loyalty to Ligonier was the strongest when they needed it most - at the height of public uproar over the lawsuit, when Ligonier issued the misleading statements by Tim Dick and Senior Management. In response to the critics, Meaghan posted some very strong comments all over the web defending her employer and identifying herself as the very customer service rep I spoke with at Ligonier. Meaghan did eventually apologize for "any confusion, for Ligonier's part in making the situation more difficult, and that her responses as a customer service representative were not as helpful as they had tried to be." She nevertheless insisted that Ligonier was not trying to lie, that they were all concerned about the situation for the Lord's sake, and that it was all just a matter of miscommunication.
You would think, given Meaghan's vocal public loyalty, that senior management at Ligonier would want to ensure that her last experience of the organization was positive, given that she was going to leave anyway. Instead, Ligonier management bizarrely chose to reward her loyalty ("I will not abandon His ministry, but only pray more earnestly for it") by instead insisting on firing her after she gave notice of quitting.
You will not be surprised to learn then that Meaghan is not the first employee Ligonier management has spurned and discarded. Reportedly, groups of nine and ten employees, some with decades of faithful service, were let go in 2004 and 2005 not long after Ligonier leadership purchased expensive trophy properties. Ligonier is also currently not paying Don Kistler, after he had a stroke and the doctor told him he couldn't go back to work for a few months -- although Tim Dick continues to be paid despite his own medical condition that severely reduces his ability to work productively. Is such behavior in conformity with Ligonier's HR policies? Is this kind of disparity in treatment legal?
And how about ethical treatment? We all know that God’s Word tells us at a minimum to be kind to one another, preferring one another in brotherly love, etc., but let’s get down to specifics. Paul talks about masters and bondservants in Ephesians, and the principles in those verses clearly also apply to employers and employees. Here is a short list of what God expects from purportedly Christian employers:
Reportedly, the atmosphere at Ligonier these days is far from this biblical standard, with management threats being common. I'm sure that most Ligonier employees love the Lord and desire to do what is right in His sight, and that they love Ligonier and Dr. Sproul and want to see them both glorify God in all that they do. At the same time, it should be clear to any honest Ligonier employee the vast gulf between what Ligonier management teaches and what they practice, such as what the Bible teaches about handling disputes among believers.
Consequently, employees must be wondering what their obligations are as Christians. I suspect that many would love to speak out and help expose the truth to donors, but fear that doing so would cost them their jobs and possibly also their friends and church. Given the potentially high price, so far most have chosen to remain silent, many while quietly seeking other employment. But I have to ask all such employees: Is your job worth the price of your integrity? Didn't Jesus say that following him would be costly?
As we see by Meaghan's example, you should not expect Ligonier management to reward loyalty with loyalty, unless you're part of the Sproul, Dick or Duncan families. You should not expect that helping management cover up and defending them from critics will protect you from management wrath in the end. If you are "laid off" for "financial" reasons, how will you be able to prove if it was actually for any other reason?
Under the circumstances, it seems to me that, instead of trying to protect the Ligonier leadership, subordinates should help expose the internal scandals in the hopes of cleansing and restoring Ligonier. Fortunately, honorable Ligonier staff can do this discreetly and protect themselves by keeping a low profile at work while supplying information to those who have a genuine interest in seeing Ligonier restored - Ministry Watchman or myself or another trusted outsider - by setting up anonymous e-mail accounts accessed only at home and used only for this purpose. This would help put on public pressure for the replacement of senior management by those with track records that show more concern about glorifying God than gratifying their pocketbooks.
As a former long-time monthly Ligonier donor who loves the Ligonier that used to glorify God and hopes only to see them restored to the glory of God and the blessings of His people, I appeal to all Ligonier insiders who are willing to take a stand against management tyranny, even anonymously and confidentially, to help expose evil deeds of darkness for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Kingdom, and His Glory.
You may remember reading on my blog recently about Meaghan May, a young lady who worked as a customer service representative at Ligonier Ministries during the uproar caused by their unbiblical lawsuit against a professing Christian and subsequent cover-up. Meaghan was the only non-managerial employee at Ligonier who spoke publicly about the lawsuit, and she strongly defended Ligonier's management in comments on this blog.
Well, only a few weeks later, Meaghan is no longer defending Ligonier. In fact, she has left the organization under circumstances that provide the latest evidence of major mismanagement at Ligonier, with implications for all current Ligonier staff.
Meaghan's husband, currently studying for a Masters of Divinity and Counseling Degree at Reformed Theological Seminary, tells the story of her recent plight at Ligonier:
“So my wife got a new job (yay!) and gave her two weeks' notice today after three years of faithful work...and then two hours later they "terminated" her! God, however, showed us really quickly that he will provide for us through the mess left in our laps. Meaghan can start her new job earlier than originally planned, and her old employer agreed to at least pay her unused vacation. Here's to a few days off! It's hard to know how to respond to a situation like this when it's not you but your wife who's going through it. Feeling this desire to protect her and defend her honor, I may have been less gracious in my blog entry for today (in that I actually mentioned what these people did) than she was in hers today, and I want to make it clear that I am damn proud of her in how she's acted through all this!”Even though Ligonier's policy is for employees to give two weeks' notice of resignation, and even though Meaghan complied with the rules, Ligonier's management fired her for daring to quit! It's a good thing senior management was "generous" enough to pay her for her unused vacation time.
In her blog, Meaghan mentions the three years of trials she endured at Ligonier and how she has been praying about it for the last couple years. She says something about her new job, though, that would be rather puzzling if we were not familiar with the recent happenings on at Ligonier: "I keep waiting for them to be gruff with me if I did something incorrectly, but they are very patient and just excited to see me take on new tasks." I'd like to be able to interpret this comment charitably, but the only way I can understand it is that Meaghan had become so accustomed to verbal abuse at Ligonier that she had begun to think it normal and expected more of the same at her new job.
Ligonier's mistreatment of Meaghan while on the job and continuing as soon as she announced her departure is particularly significant given that she was, after Tim Dick and John Duncan, the most visible staff defender of both the organization and its senior management. Meaghan's loyalty to Ligonier was the strongest when they needed it most - at the height of public uproar over the lawsuit, when Ligonier issued the misleading statements by Tim Dick and Senior Management. In response to the critics, Meaghan posted some very strong comments all over the web defending her employer and identifying herself as the very customer service rep I spoke with at Ligonier. Meaghan did eventually apologize for "any confusion, for Ligonier's part in making the situation more difficult, and that her responses as a customer service representative were not as helpful as they had tried to be." She nevertheless insisted that Ligonier was not trying to lie, that they were all concerned about the situation for the Lord's sake, and that it was all just a matter of miscommunication.
You would think, given Meaghan's vocal public loyalty, that senior management at Ligonier would want to ensure that her last experience of the organization was positive, given that she was going to leave anyway. Instead, Ligonier management bizarrely chose to reward her loyalty ("I will not abandon His ministry, but only pray more earnestly for it") by instead insisting on firing her after she gave notice of quitting.
You will not be surprised to learn then that Meaghan is not the first employee Ligonier management has spurned and discarded. Reportedly, groups of nine and ten employees, some with decades of faithful service, were let go in 2004 and 2005 not long after Ligonier leadership purchased expensive trophy properties. Ligonier is also currently not paying Don Kistler, after he had a stroke and the doctor told him he couldn't go back to work for a few months -- although Tim Dick continues to be paid despite his own medical condition that severely reduces his ability to work productively. Is such behavior in conformity with Ligonier's HR policies? Is this kind of disparity in treatment legal?
And how about ethical treatment? We all know that God’s Word tells us at a minimum to be kind to one another, preferring one another in brotherly love, etc., but let’s get down to specifics. Paul talks about masters and bondservants in Ephesians, and the principles in those verses clearly also apply to employers and employees. Here is a short list of what God expects from purportedly Christian employers:
- Sincerity of heart, as to Christ
- Doing the will of God from the heart
- With goodwill doing service, as to the Lord
- Giving up threatening
Reportedly, the atmosphere at Ligonier these days is far from this biblical standard, with management threats being common. I'm sure that most Ligonier employees love the Lord and desire to do what is right in His sight, and that they love Ligonier and Dr. Sproul and want to see them both glorify God in all that they do. At the same time, it should be clear to any honest Ligonier employee the vast gulf between what Ligonier management teaches and what they practice, such as what the Bible teaches about handling disputes among believers.
Consequently, employees must be wondering what their obligations are as Christians. I suspect that many would love to speak out and help expose the truth to donors, but fear that doing so would cost them their jobs and possibly also their friends and church. Given the potentially high price, so far most have chosen to remain silent, many while quietly seeking other employment. But I have to ask all such employees: Is your job worth the price of your integrity? Didn't Jesus say that following him would be costly?
As we see by Meaghan's example, you should not expect Ligonier management to reward loyalty with loyalty, unless you're part of the Sproul, Dick or Duncan families. You should not expect that helping management cover up and defending them from critics will protect you from management wrath in the end. If you are "laid off" for "financial" reasons, how will you be able to prove if it was actually for any other reason?
Under the circumstances, it seems to me that, instead of trying to protect the Ligonier leadership, subordinates should help expose the internal scandals in the hopes of cleansing and restoring Ligonier. Fortunately, honorable Ligonier staff can do this discreetly and protect themselves by keeping a low profile at work while supplying information to those who have a genuine interest in seeing Ligonier restored - Ministry Watchman or myself or another trusted outsider - by setting up anonymous e-mail accounts accessed only at home and used only for this purpose. This would help put on public pressure for the replacement of senior management by those with track records that show more concern about glorifying God than gratifying their pocketbooks.
As a former long-time monthly Ligonier donor who loves the Ligonier that used to glorify God and hopes only to see them restored to the glory of God and the blessings of His people, I appeal to all Ligonier insiders who are willing to take a stand against management tyranny, even anonymously and confidentially, to help expose evil deeds of darkness for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Kingdom, and His Glory.
Nov 10, 2006
Don Kistler's Statement
A Public Statement from Dr. Don Kistler
Managing Editor, Soli Deo Gloria Publications
A Division of Ligonier Ministries
I have been reading several blogsites lately where things have been posted regarding Ligonier Ministries and its president and CEO, Tim Dick, and the acquisition of Soli Deo Gloria Ministries. I think that I am in a good position to correct some misconceptions and misrepresentations regarding that situation and subsequent allegations.
First, Soli Deo Gloria was not defrauded by Tim Dick or Ligonier. Our ministry was not stolen. We signed an agreement to become part of Ligonier Ministries. There was no switching of contracts, and there was no duplicity in their dealings with us. I have no idea where this came from, or who is making such statements-but they did not come from me.
Second, I am not being mistreated by R.C. Sproul. He is not treating me as a "persona non grata," nor is he failing to speak to me. Neither am I seeing any form of retaliation from Tim Dick, as has been erroneously reported. Those things have simply not happened.
Third, I can accept invitations to speak and/or preach as I am asked. Ligonier has been most accommodating in that respect.
Thanks to all of you who have prayed for me during my recent stroke due to a brain hemorrhage. I am recovering well, albeit slowly. This is why it has taken me until now to respond regarding this matter.
I hope this helps to clear up some of the allegations and accusations that have been made. I also hope it serves to restore people’s opinions regarding Tim Dick, Ligonier Ministries, and my dear friend R. C. Sproul. He remains the object of my highest respect and deepest affection, and I look forward to many years of serving the Lord as part of the Ligonier Ministries team.
Dr. Don Kistler
Oct 30, 2006
Loving Ligonier
Exposing evil deeds is never an easy decision to make. Sometimes love covers a multitude of sins. Sometimes Matthew 18 is necessary and we follow all 3 steps diligently. Sometimes public exposure is necessary. In all these, and any other biblical confrontation of sin, love must be paramount. I tend to live my life by what the Bible says, so I was interested to know when public exposure was appropriate.
One day in Antioch, Paul saw a bunch of Jews, including Peter and Barnabas, being outright hypocrites, eating with Gentiles as God had previously told Peter, but when certain Jews came to town, Peter and Barnabas and crew would conveniently not know those Gentiles! Paul was none too happy, and if the story were written today, it might say that Paul first went to Peter and Barnabas and their buddies privately, in the spirit of Matthew 18, giving them a chance to repent in private. But that’s not what Paul did. Peter’s sin was a public sin, and it affected many people, so Paul said to Peter, before everybody, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” He went on to preach a sermon to Peter about justification by faith alone, essentially not even giving Peter a chance to repent first! We live in such a touchy-feely society today that most people would not see this a loving rebuke, but sometimes Christian love demands this.
Paul listed a whole bunch of names in his second letter to Timothy that became a document of public rebuke for all the world to see for the next 2000 years. He denounces Demas for forsaking Paul for the world, and Crescens and Titus also left him in the lurch. At first glance, this may not seem to warrant public exposure, but since these men apparently accompanied Paul on at least some of his journeys, they must have been at least as public as a CEO or senior manager of a big Reformed ministry might be. He also warns Timothy against Alexander the coppersmith and even asked the Lord to repay him (a curse, really).
John wrote in his third letter to Gaius about all the sins of Diotrephes, apparently an elder or in some office in the church, saying that he would take care of it when got there. These were not private letters, as we know because we are still reading them, and they were not private sins, so John felt the need to expose them publicly as well.
Public exposure is not always necessary, but the more public the sinner, and the more public the sin, the more public exposure may be necessary. Ligonier Ministries, and Tim Dick in particular, were given a chance to come clean before Frank Vance began to expose them. Rather than responding with even a “yes” or “no” answer, Tim Dick, on behalf of Ligonier, decided to try to get a judge to put a gag order on Frank so that Frank couldn’t tell the truth about Ligonier. This now made Ligonier’s sins very public and, hence, the need for very public exposure.
Some have questioned my personal involvement in this situation, and I will not go into detail about that, but I want to make it clear that my motivation is rooted in love – a deep love for the ministry that helped ground me in Reformed theology; that taught me deep spiritual truths from God’s Word; and a ministry that seemed to take a firm stand on issues that relate to daily life, not in the extreme as some teach, but built upon a strong biblical foundation. It has been, and still is, my sincere desire to see Ligonier Ministries profess the holiness of God not in their excellent teachings, but also in their daily walk. My first post was about their divorcing their orthodoxy from their orthopraxy. I hope I have continued to stand on that premise and still pray for repentance toward a united doxy and praxy.
Why is John Duncan being made public when this seemed to be about Tim Dick at first? First, John made himself public when he wrote a statement from “Senior Management” about this whole situation; “Senior Management” is John Duncan, in case some weren’t sure about that. Second, John Duncan is first in line to take Tim Dick’s place, should Tim ever do the right thing and resign, or be let go. Since part of calling Ligonier to repentance involved asking Tim to resign, John suddenly became a very public part of the picture. Third, John is responsible for the lies which we all now know came from Ligonier in many forms – through the front office staffers or the written statements hidden on Ligonier’s website. Also, since Tim Dick is not able to work full-time due to health issues, John Duncan seems to mostly run Ligonier anyway, making him a very public figure.
I mentioned earlier that I had a long phone conversation with John Duncan. It was a very good conversation as far as being kind on both sides. John was well aware that I would consider posting anything he said; his only request was that I not rehash the whole conversation. I did not see any reason to write about most of our conversation, although I well could have, but there were a few things that really concerned me that I thought important to the public. I was not rash in publishing even those, waiting a full ten days to post about his wanting me to be disciplined for expositing Scripture. I did speak to him about this on the phone first, but he held to his position. If this is what he really thinks, why does Ligonier have a hypocrite as “Senior Management?” Surely they have had women exposit Scripture at Ligonier conferences before.
I also had a lengthy email conversation with Tim Dick, about 40 exchanges in all, of which he asked me not to post anything. Although it could have shed more light on Frank Vance’s accusations, I chose to honor Tim’s request for privacy.
Ecclesiastes has a very interesting list of times, of which we are all so familiar. Some that may apply to this situation are:
This was a time to break down, a time to gather stones, a time to tear, a time to speak. I pray that it was all done in love, all done for the ultimate glory of God, and that repentance will be soon forthcoming. I do not know why God chose me for this task, but I remain his obedient servant ~ loving Ligonier.
One day in Antioch, Paul saw a bunch of Jews, including Peter and Barnabas, being outright hypocrites, eating with Gentiles as God had previously told Peter, but when certain Jews came to town, Peter and Barnabas and crew would conveniently not know those Gentiles! Paul was none too happy, and if the story were written today, it might say that Paul first went to Peter and Barnabas and their buddies privately, in the spirit of Matthew 18, giving them a chance to repent in private. But that’s not what Paul did. Peter’s sin was a public sin, and it affected many people, so Paul said to Peter, before everybody, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” He went on to preach a sermon to Peter about justification by faith alone, essentially not even giving Peter a chance to repent first! We live in such a touchy-feely society today that most people would not see this a loving rebuke, but sometimes Christian love demands this.
Paul listed a whole bunch of names in his second letter to Timothy that became a document of public rebuke for all the world to see for the next 2000 years. He denounces Demas for forsaking Paul for the world, and Crescens and Titus also left him in the lurch. At first glance, this may not seem to warrant public exposure, but since these men apparently accompanied Paul on at least some of his journeys, they must have been at least as public as a CEO or senior manager of a big Reformed ministry might be. He also warns Timothy against Alexander the coppersmith and even asked the Lord to repay him (a curse, really).
John wrote in his third letter to Gaius about all the sins of Diotrephes, apparently an elder or in some office in the church, saying that he would take care of it when got there. These were not private letters, as we know because we are still reading them, and they were not private sins, so John felt the need to expose them publicly as well.
Public exposure is not always necessary, but the more public the sinner, and the more public the sin, the more public exposure may be necessary. Ligonier Ministries, and Tim Dick in particular, were given a chance to come clean before Frank Vance began to expose them. Rather than responding with even a “yes” or “no” answer, Tim Dick, on behalf of Ligonier, decided to try to get a judge to put a gag order on Frank so that Frank couldn’t tell the truth about Ligonier. This now made Ligonier’s sins very public and, hence, the need for very public exposure.
Some have questioned my personal involvement in this situation, and I will not go into detail about that, but I want to make it clear that my motivation is rooted in love – a deep love for the ministry that helped ground me in Reformed theology; that taught me deep spiritual truths from God’s Word; and a ministry that seemed to take a firm stand on issues that relate to daily life, not in the extreme as some teach, but built upon a strong biblical foundation. It has been, and still is, my sincere desire to see Ligonier Ministries profess the holiness of God not in their excellent teachings, but also in their daily walk. My first post was about their divorcing their orthodoxy from their orthopraxy. I hope I have continued to stand on that premise and still pray for repentance toward a united doxy and praxy.
Why is John Duncan being made public when this seemed to be about Tim Dick at first? First, John made himself public when he wrote a statement from “Senior Management” about this whole situation; “Senior Management” is John Duncan, in case some weren’t sure about that. Second, John Duncan is first in line to take Tim Dick’s place, should Tim ever do the right thing and resign, or be let go. Since part of calling Ligonier to repentance involved asking Tim to resign, John suddenly became a very public part of the picture. Third, John is responsible for the lies which we all now know came from Ligonier in many forms – through the front office staffers or the written statements hidden on Ligonier’s website. Also, since Tim Dick is not able to work full-time due to health issues, John Duncan seems to mostly run Ligonier anyway, making him a very public figure.
I mentioned earlier that I had a long phone conversation with John Duncan. It was a very good conversation as far as being kind on both sides. John was well aware that I would consider posting anything he said; his only request was that I not rehash the whole conversation. I did not see any reason to write about most of our conversation, although I well could have, but there were a few things that really concerned me that I thought important to the public. I was not rash in publishing even those, waiting a full ten days to post about his wanting me to be disciplined for expositing Scripture. I did speak to him about this on the phone first, but he held to his position. If this is what he really thinks, why does Ligonier have a hypocrite as “Senior Management?” Surely they have had women exposit Scripture at Ligonier conferences before.
I also had a lengthy email conversation with Tim Dick, about 40 exchanges in all, of which he asked me not to post anything. Although it could have shed more light on Frank Vance’s accusations, I chose to honor Tim’s request for privacy.
Ecclesiastes has a very interesting list of times, of which we are all so familiar. Some that may apply to this situation are:
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak.
And a time to build up;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak.
This was a time to break down, a time to gather stones, a time to tear, a time to speak. I pray that it was all done in love, all done for the ultimate glory of God, and that repentance will be soon forthcoming. I do not know why God chose me for this task, but I remain his obedient servant ~ loving Ligonier.
Oct 29, 2006
PCA Rap Reps?
Click on the movie above for the latest in Reformed entertainment!
I did not actually attend the Ligonier 2006 National Conference, but I'm told this was one of their top acts! I've never seen these men before, so I need your help in identifying these two ghetto rappers promoting Ligonier's new seeker-sensitive conference. Feel free to examine the following evidence -- comparing the video with these photos I've found on the web:
Ligon Duncan
John Duncan
I'm taking a poll: Are these two rappers the men in the links above? Place your vote in the comments section.
If you can't quite follow these lyrics, you may read them here:
Buh, buh, buh,
A man doin' bad
commit a crime,
Caught him in the act
now he's doin' time
I ask him why
with tears in my eye
He says, "I did it for
the M - O - N - E - Y.
It might sound sad,
it might sound funny,
But that's what people
do for money.
Pft, pft, pft. etc.
I did not actually attend the Ligonier 2006 National Conference, but I'm told this was one of their top acts! I've never seen these men before, so I need your help in identifying these two ghetto rappers promoting Ligonier's new seeker-sensitive conference. Feel free to examine the following evidence -- comparing the video with these photos I've found on the web:
Ligon Duncan
John Duncan
I'm taking a poll: Are these two rappers the men in the links above? Place your vote in the comments section.
If you can't quite follow these lyrics, you may read them here:
Buh, buh, buh,
A man doin' bad
commit a crime,
Caught him in the act
now he's doin' time
I ask him why
with tears in my eye
He says, "I did it for
the M - O - N - E - Y.
It might sound sad,
it might sound funny,
But that's what people
do for money.
Pft, pft, pft. etc.
Oct 5, 2006
Ligonier's New Progressive Views?
Senior Management Rebukes Me for Expositing Scripture on My Own Blog
“Children should be seen and not heard” is an expression I am very grateful was not adhered to by my own grandparents, although it was somewhat in vogue in those days. Although some people take such a demeaning attitude toward little ones, I was blessed to have never received such treatment from anyone.
Imagine my shock, then, when I began attending a church that believed that “women should be seen and not heard!” Oh, surely, I thought, this just applies to the sermon; women shouldn’t teach men during the worship service. But, no! I remember my utter frustration when my mother came with me to visit our church once, and my husband was away on business. Who was to introduce her? I couldn’t speak, for I was a woman. My mother couldn’t introduce herself, for she was a woman. It was actually quite comical watching one of the men in the congregation, who hadn’t even taken the time to find out her name yet, try to introduce this stranger in the midst, as none other than “Jennifer’s mother.”
I thought that particular church was a little on the extreme side, but I’ve met some other men who seem to dislike women “speaking” as well. I recently had a conversation with a man who wanted to know if I was in the same denomination as he was, so that he could speak to my elders about disciplining me for – expositing Scripture!
Did you know that it is a sin for a woman to exposit Scripture? I had never heard this one before, so I asked John Duncan which verse he used to support such a hypothesis. He led me to “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak.” I tried to explain that the context of that chapter is orderliness in a church service and had nothing to do with whether or not I exposited Scripture on my blog. He didn’t want to hear me exposit that passage, I guess, and insisted that I was sinning by expositing Scripture.
From the first day of this blog, I have had one purpose, which has been stated at the top: “In the spirit of Titus 2, what I wish an older woman would have shared with me when I was younger.” Just in case you are not a Titus 2 extremist like I often find in the patriarchy movement, this means that as an older woman, I am teaching younger women on this blog. I do NOT prohibit anyone from reading my blog. If men choose to read a woman’s blog, that is up to them. It is interesting to note that one of the qualifications of being a Titus 2 woman is to be a “teacher of good things.” Now, if expositing Scripture is not being a “teacher of good things,” I guess I don’t know what is!
Does the Bible prohibit men from listening to women, other than women preaching in a church service? I’ve always wondered what it meant in Acts 2 when Peter was preaching and he said that “your daughters will prophesy.” I wonder when and to whom are those ladies to prophesy? Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines prophesy in Scripture as “to instruct in religious doctrines; to interpret or explain Scripture or religious subjects; to exhort.”
There is a short but interesting story in the book of Acts about a fervent young man who spoke about the Lord in the synagogue, but he only knew the baptism of John. So Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. Maybe it should have said that Aquila explained to him the way of God, while Priscilla sat by like a doormat.
Do you ever wonder why God gave women a brain?
My husband could have married a dumb-blonde, doormat type, but he was really in the mood for a wife who could think and carry on an intelligent conversation. We have many deep, politically-incorrect, theological and current events debates. He doesn’t want a “yes” wife; he wants someone to challenge him to go farther, to go deeper. At one of our previous churches, I asked the elder’s wife a question about a verse in Scripture. This lady is well educated and very intelligent, but her answer to me was, “I will have to ask my husband his opinion on that verse and get back to you.” I KNOW she had an opinion. Why does she allow herself to be so demeaned?
I am glad that God does not look down on women. He says, “There is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This does not in any way negate the different roles in which God has placed men and women, nor does it supercede what God says about women not teaching men IN CHURCH, but the greatest liberator of women who ever lived was Jesus, making men and women of equal standing in the Lord. (Here I go expositing again, John!)
I love teaching Bible studies. I teach women, but if a man desires to come to my Bible study, I will not turn him away. I have had my husband voluntarily come to my Bible studies several times, along with many other men. I was not the only teacher available; they could have sat under a male teacher. I’ve had the same thing happen when I teach classes on how to homeschool or nutrition. Should I just turn men away as if they were dirt? I will not treat anyone that way.
There are definitely no “negative” commands in Scripture for either women expositing Scripture or teaching men outside of a church service. (A “negative” command is a “Thou shalt not…” and is a far more serious offense if broken than any other type of command.) John, I really searched, but I cannot find any biblical support for your disdain of my expositing Scripture. Maybe what you really don’t like is my telling the truth of how Scripture relates to the current Ligonier situation. I could understand that. But rather than attacking the messenger, John, please let the Word of God bring conviction to your soul and repent from this current pattern of sin.
I have been studying God’s Word for many years now and I am so filled with His Word that it just spills out of me! I don’t think I could stop expositing Scripture if I tried. Anyone who chooses to read this blog is also free to comment and challenge my exposition of Scripture. I do not claim to “know it all” – far from it - but I do keep Scripture in context, so if you reply, please keep it in context for a fair debate.
John, is this the new direction Ligonier is taking under “Senior Management?” When Ligonier has board meetings, I wonder if Vesta Sproul and Pat Dizney have to keep their views of Scripture quiet while listening blindly to the men’s? Or do Chairman’s wives and wealthy donors get an exception to this rule?
Thanks, Mark, for your stamp of approval on this post!
“Children should be seen and not heard” is an expression I am very grateful was not adhered to by my own grandparents, although it was somewhat in vogue in those days. Although some people take such a demeaning attitude toward little ones, I was blessed to have never received such treatment from anyone.
Imagine my shock, then, when I began attending a church that believed that “women should be seen and not heard!” Oh, surely, I thought, this just applies to the sermon; women shouldn’t teach men during the worship service. But, no! I remember my utter frustration when my mother came with me to visit our church once, and my husband was away on business. Who was to introduce her? I couldn’t speak, for I was a woman. My mother couldn’t introduce herself, for she was a woman. It was actually quite comical watching one of the men in the congregation, who hadn’t even taken the time to find out her name yet, try to introduce this stranger in the midst, as none other than “Jennifer’s mother.”
I thought that particular church was a little on the extreme side, but I’ve met some other men who seem to dislike women “speaking” as well. I recently had a conversation with a man who wanted to know if I was in the same denomination as he was, so that he could speak to my elders about disciplining me for – expositing Scripture!
Did you know that it is a sin for a woman to exposit Scripture? I had never heard this one before, so I asked John Duncan which verse he used to support such a hypothesis. He led me to “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak.” I tried to explain that the context of that chapter is orderliness in a church service and had nothing to do with whether or not I exposited Scripture on my blog. He didn’t want to hear me exposit that passage, I guess, and insisted that I was sinning by expositing Scripture.
From the first day of this blog, I have had one purpose, which has been stated at the top: “In the spirit of Titus 2, what I wish an older woman would have shared with me when I was younger.” Just in case you are not a Titus 2 extremist like I often find in the patriarchy movement, this means that as an older woman, I am teaching younger women on this blog. I do NOT prohibit anyone from reading my blog. If men choose to read a woman’s blog, that is up to them. It is interesting to note that one of the qualifications of being a Titus 2 woman is to be a “teacher of good things.” Now, if expositing Scripture is not being a “teacher of good things,” I guess I don’t know what is!
Does the Bible prohibit men from listening to women, other than women preaching in a church service? I’ve always wondered what it meant in Acts 2 when Peter was preaching and he said that “your daughters will prophesy.” I wonder when and to whom are those ladies to prophesy? Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines prophesy in Scripture as “to instruct in religious doctrines; to interpret or explain Scripture or religious subjects; to exhort.”
There is a short but interesting story in the book of Acts about a fervent young man who spoke about the Lord in the synagogue, but he only knew the baptism of John. So Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. Maybe it should have said that Aquila explained to him the way of God, while Priscilla sat by like a doormat.
Do you ever wonder why God gave women a brain?
My husband could have married a dumb-blonde, doormat type, but he was really in the mood for a wife who could think and carry on an intelligent conversation. We have many deep, politically-incorrect, theological and current events debates. He doesn’t want a “yes” wife; he wants someone to challenge him to go farther, to go deeper. At one of our previous churches, I asked the elder’s wife a question about a verse in Scripture. This lady is well educated and very intelligent, but her answer to me was, “I will have to ask my husband his opinion on that verse and get back to you.” I KNOW she had an opinion. Why does she allow herself to be so demeaned?
I am glad that God does not look down on women. He says, “There is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This does not in any way negate the different roles in which God has placed men and women, nor does it supercede what God says about women not teaching men IN CHURCH, but the greatest liberator of women who ever lived was Jesus, making men and women of equal standing in the Lord. (Here I go expositing again, John!)
I love teaching Bible studies. I teach women, but if a man desires to come to my Bible study, I will not turn him away. I have had my husband voluntarily come to my Bible studies several times, along with many other men. I was not the only teacher available; they could have sat under a male teacher. I’ve had the same thing happen when I teach classes on how to homeschool or nutrition. Should I just turn men away as if they were dirt? I will not treat anyone that way.
There are definitely no “negative” commands in Scripture for either women expositing Scripture or teaching men outside of a church service. (A “negative” command is a “Thou shalt not…” and is a far more serious offense if broken than any other type of command.) John, I really searched, but I cannot find any biblical support for your disdain of my expositing Scripture. Maybe what you really don’t like is my telling the truth of how Scripture relates to the current Ligonier situation. I could understand that. But rather than attacking the messenger, John, please let the Word of God bring conviction to your soul and repent from this current pattern of sin.
I have been studying God’s Word for many years now and I am so filled with His Word that it just spills out of me! I don’t think I could stop expositing Scripture if I tried. Anyone who chooses to read this blog is also free to comment and challenge my exposition of Scripture. I do not claim to “know it all” – far from it - but I do keep Scripture in context, so if you reply, please keep it in context for a fair debate.
John, is this the new direction Ligonier is taking under “Senior Management?” When Ligonier has board meetings, I wonder if Vesta Sproul and Pat Dizney have to keep their views of Scripture quiet while listening blindly to the men’s? Or do Chairman’s wives and wealthy donors get an exception to this rule?
Thanks, Mark, for your stamp of approval on this post!
Oct 2, 2006
The Honor of Shame
In biblical reckoning, today is the Day of Atonement. While we no longer need to offer up sacrifices, holding our breath as to whether the Lord will accept them or not, this is certainly an opportunity to reflect on God’s grace toward us. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain and has redeemed us to God by His blood. How seriously do we consider our redemption? Do we repent wholeheartedly at the time of salvation, only to refuse to repent when sin eventually creeps back into our lives? This is the time of year that our family takes additional time to pray and ask our Heavenly Father to reveal any sin in our lives, any relationships that we need to mend. Today is a day for us of focusing on full repentance for anything that may have been overlooked at times of communion, or if there is some nagging sin we have held onto, refusing to deal with it outright. Although every day should be a day of repentance for Christians, it is good to spend this extra time every year searching our own hearts.
On this Day of Atonement, I would like to call RC, Tim Dick, John Duncan, the Ligonier board members, and any others, to consider searching their hearts for true repentance. I have read the statements by Tim Dick and Senior Management and do not find any evidence of repentance for suing a fellow believer in a secular court or covering up afterwards.
Let us examine the biblical qualifications of true repentance. We are not talking about the repentance that leads to salvation, since we are dealing with professing Christians. But true repentance is necessary for believers who have sinned as well.
If we don’t start by admitting that something is a sin, there will never be any true repentance. What “sin” has Ligonier confessed to so far? Tim says, “I regret any confusion this may have caused” and “I accept full responsibility for the decision.” “Senior Management” said, “The decision was reached not to pursue a conclusion to this matter through the legal system.” This is the closest thing to confessing sin in these statements, which are the only public statements so far released by the ministry. That is NOT confession.
Now let’s go to II Corinthians 7:8-12 and see what Paul thinks should be included in repentance. First, Paul talks about the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. Worldly sorrow is being sorry that you got caught. “I’m sorry someone figured out what we were up to.” Worldly sorrow involves defensive anger, as evidenced here by Tim: “Each time I refuted the accusations, he refused to listen. My denials were then used by the accuser to perpetuate his blog commentary. At that point, I stopped interacting with the accuser, who again escalated his attack, continuing to exhibit, by his public and private conduct, a testimony inconsistent with that of a Christian.”
And here by Senior Management: “The accuser's malicious attacks culminated with the accusation that Ligonier defrauded Soli Deo Gloria, in our recent acquisition of it. This has been categorically refuted by Don Kistler, SDG's founder. Threats to Ligonier and its leadership have continued to escalate, with the accuser issuing deadlines for Ligonier to answer his non-credible charges. At one point our president was told he had “put a knife to his own throat,” by ignoring the accuser. Throughout this entire ordeal, numerous emails and posts refuting the accuser were ignored by him. Mediation through ecclesiastical means is always preferred. On at least six occasions, we have sought information from the accuser as to how we might contact his pastor or session. The accuser has refused all requests, publicly scoffing at the notion.”
Worldly sorrow also includes pride. Notice that the whole content of each statement is focused on how they were hurt, how they were attacked, how they were accused, all the bad things that happened to them. The focus is on them. And that leads us to the next aspect of worldly sorrow – self-pity. Don’t you feel sorry for Ligonier when you read those public statements? Have they drawn out your sympathies in showing how hurt they’ve been? Worldly sorrow does not produce a change in behavior. Ligonier certainly appears to be hanging on to their right to file suit against Frank Vance once they have another opportunity. Worldly sorrow covers up what was done. Saying that they take full responsibility is a totally meaningless statement without the necessary accompanying confession and admittance of sins. Defensive anger, pride and self-pity are not the marks of true, godly repentance, but rather that of the world’s way.
Worldly sorrow wonders what other people are thinking. Godly sorrow wonders what God thinks. Godly sorrow is primarily directed toward God. David said, when he had committed great sins, “Against Thee, and Thee only, have I sinned.” Although other people are certainly affected, we need to remember that all sin is rebellion against God.
Paul goes on to make a list of what godly repentance should entail:
Diligence
Clearing of yourselves
Indignation
Fear
Vehement desire
Zeal
Vindication
This is a difficult passage to understand, so let’s look at them one by one.
Diligence here is in the same sense as in dealing in business: being earnest in dealing with the issue, to be very careful and diligent in accomplishing what needs to be done, not being flippant, but having a serious attitude toward right and wrong.
Clearing of yourselves is the Greek word apologia, which is used in a different manner in this verse than the normal meaning. Here it refers to a clear explanation of what was done wrong to all those who were affected or who have a need to know. It involves clearly stating the details of the sin(s) to the appropriate parties.
Indignation means to be irritated or vexed, but not in a spirit of anger or self-justification; rather, to be so displeased with your own self for having committed such a grievous sin.
Fear here has nothing to do with being afraid. Rather it is a godly dread or terror of that particular sin you have committed, to the point that you now take a very strong stance against that particular sin, and have a heightened hatred of sin in general.
Vehement desire is that burning desire to live your life fully sold out to God now that you are turning from your sins.
Zeal involves having a fervent mind, one that is determined to do what needs to be done for the Lord now.
And vindication involves godly sorrow working in your heart to make you ready to take a stand on the right side of truth, God’s truth, and to stand up for right against wrong.
We all know that repentance means a complete turn in the opposite direction of where we were heading, but this verse above clearly lays out the specifics of that.
Let’s see what Ligonier should have done, if they wanted their donors and supporters to believe they truly repented.
First, RC Sproul, Tim Dick, John Duncan, each board member, and possibly other senior management need to put their names out there. Thank you, Tim, for at least having the guts to use your own name.
Diligence: We need to see that you each are serious about dealing with sin, especially in this situation.
Clearing of yourselves: There needs to be specific confession. What did you do wrong? How did you sin? Who did you sin against? Why was this wrong?
Indignation: There should be absolutely no self-justification in those statements. You should take full responsibility by using statements such as “I was wrong when I …” or “I am so sorry that I did…”. If there is even a hint of blaming others, God will not consider that true repentance.
Fear: We would like to see you each make a public statement about how wrong it is to do what you have done. Show us your hatred of your sins.
Vehement desire: Dismissing a lawsuit without prejudice so that you can resurrect it again later is NOT turning away from your sins. Now is the time to take a stand AGAINST Christians suing one another and for you to call other Christians to hold to God’s Word on this, and other, issues related to your sins.
Zeal: Determine what needs to be done for Lord now, what needs to be done to clean up His testimony that you have tarnished here.
Vindication: Show us your sorrow; show us your shame. Where is your shame? Worldly sorrow won’t work here. We are calling you to a godly sorrow, a godly repentance.
RC, Tim, John, board members, and others: Do us the honor of showing your shame. Search your hearts today and see if there is anything wicked there. Godly repentance works righteousness. We so desire to see this once-righteous ministry glorify God in everything. We are praying for your repentance.
On this Day of Atonement, I would like to call RC, Tim Dick, John Duncan, the Ligonier board members, and any others, to consider searching their hearts for true repentance. I have read the statements by Tim Dick and Senior Management and do not find any evidence of repentance for suing a fellow believer in a secular court or covering up afterwards.
Let us examine the biblical qualifications of true repentance. We are not talking about the repentance that leads to salvation, since we are dealing with professing Christians. But true repentance is necessary for believers who have sinned as well.
If we don’t start by admitting that something is a sin, there will never be any true repentance. What “sin” has Ligonier confessed to so far? Tim says, “I regret any confusion this may have caused” and “I accept full responsibility for the decision.” “Senior Management” said, “The decision was reached not to pursue a conclusion to this matter through the legal system.” This is the closest thing to confessing sin in these statements, which are the only public statements so far released by the ministry. That is NOT confession.
Now let’s go to II Corinthians 7:8-12 and see what Paul thinks should be included in repentance. First, Paul talks about the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. Worldly sorrow is being sorry that you got caught. “I’m sorry someone figured out what we were up to.” Worldly sorrow involves defensive anger, as evidenced here by Tim: “Each time I refuted the accusations, he refused to listen. My denials were then used by the accuser to perpetuate his blog commentary. At that point, I stopped interacting with the accuser, who again escalated his attack, continuing to exhibit, by his public and private conduct, a testimony inconsistent with that of a Christian.”
And here by Senior Management: “The accuser's malicious attacks culminated with the accusation that Ligonier defrauded Soli Deo Gloria, in our recent acquisition of it. This has been categorically refuted by Don Kistler, SDG's founder. Threats to Ligonier and its leadership have continued to escalate, with the accuser issuing deadlines for Ligonier to answer his non-credible charges. At one point our president was told he had “put a knife to his own throat,” by ignoring the accuser. Throughout this entire ordeal, numerous emails and posts refuting the accuser were ignored by him. Mediation through ecclesiastical means is always preferred. On at least six occasions, we have sought information from the accuser as to how we might contact his pastor or session. The accuser has refused all requests, publicly scoffing at the notion.”
Worldly sorrow also includes pride. Notice that the whole content of each statement is focused on how they were hurt, how they were attacked, how they were accused, all the bad things that happened to them. The focus is on them. And that leads us to the next aspect of worldly sorrow – self-pity. Don’t you feel sorry for Ligonier when you read those public statements? Have they drawn out your sympathies in showing how hurt they’ve been? Worldly sorrow does not produce a change in behavior. Ligonier certainly appears to be hanging on to their right to file suit against Frank Vance once they have another opportunity. Worldly sorrow covers up what was done. Saying that they take full responsibility is a totally meaningless statement without the necessary accompanying confession and admittance of sins. Defensive anger, pride and self-pity are not the marks of true, godly repentance, but rather that of the world’s way.
Worldly sorrow wonders what other people are thinking. Godly sorrow wonders what God thinks. Godly sorrow is primarily directed toward God. David said, when he had committed great sins, “Against Thee, and Thee only, have I sinned.” Although other people are certainly affected, we need to remember that all sin is rebellion against God.
Paul goes on to make a list of what godly repentance should entail:
Diligence
Clearing of yourselves
Indignation
Fear
Vehement desire
Zeal
Vindication
This is a difficult passage to understand, so let’s look at them one by one.
Diligence here is in the same sense as in dealing in business: being earnest in dealing with the issue, to be very careful and diligent in accomplishing what needs to be done, not being flippant, but having a serious attitude toward right and wrong.
Clearing of yourselves is the Greek word apologia, which is used in a different manner in this verse than the normal meaning. Here it refers to a clear explanation of what was done wrong to all those who were affected or who have a need to know. It involves clearly stating the details of the sin(s) to the appropriate parties.
Indignation means to be irritated or vexed, but not in a spirit of anger or self-justification; rather, to be so displeased with your own self for having committed such a grievous sin.
Fear here has nothing to do with being afraid. Rather it is a godly dread or terror of that particular sin you have committed, to the point that you now take a very strong stance against that particular sin, and have a heightened hatred of sin in general.
Vehement desire is that burning desire to live your life fully sold out to God now that you are turning from your sins.
Zeal involves having a fervent mind, one that is determined to do what needs to be done for the Lord now.
And vindication involves godly sorrow working in your heart to make you ready to take a stand on the right side of truth, God’s truth, and to stand up for right against wrong.
We all know that repentance means a complete turn in the opposite direction of where we were heading, but this verse above clearly lays out the specifics of that.
Let’s see what Ligonier should have done, if they wanted their donors and supporters to believe they truly repented.
First, RC Sproul, Tim Dick, John Duncan, each board member, and possibly other senior management need to put their names out there. Thank you, Tim, for at least having the guts to use your own name.
Diligence: We need to see that you each are serious about dealing with sin, especially in this situation.
Clearing of yourselves: There needs to be specific confession. What did you do wrong? How did you sin? Who did you sin against? Why was this wrong?
Indignation: There should be absolutely no self-justification in those statements. You should take full responsibility by using statements such as “I was wrong when I …” or “I am so sorry that I did…”. If there is even a hint of blaming others, God will not consider that true repentance.
Fear: We would like to see you each make a public statement about how wrong it is to do what you have done. Show us your hatred of your sins.
Vehement desire: Dismissing a lawsuit without prejudice so that you can resurrect it again later is NOT turning away from your sins. Now is the time to take a stand AGAINST Christians suing one another and for you to call other Christians to hold to God’s Word on this, and other, issues related to your sins.
Zeal: Determine what needs to be done for Lord now, what needs to be done to clean up His testimony that you have tarnished here.
Vindication: Show us your sorrow; show us your shame. Where is your shame? Worldly sorrow won’t work here. We are calling you to a godly sorrow, a godly repentance.
RC, Tim, John, board members, and others: Do us the honor of showing your shame. Search your hearts today and see if there is anything wicked there. Godly repentance works righteousness. We so desire to see this once-righteous ministry glorify God in everything. We are praying for your repentance.
Sep 29, 2006
The Heir to Ligonier?
Updated 9/29/06. Original posted 9/18/06.
Dr. RC Sproul’s ministry, Ligonier Ministries, has been instrumental in leading thousands of Christians into a daily deeper walk with Christ. This is an extremely important ministry for Christians world-wide today and we need to pray for them daily. But what is to be the legacy of this heretofore God-honoring ministry? Are we going to let the world laugh as it crumbles into the gutter? Who will be left holding the reins after Dr. Sproul? In all actuality, Dr. Sproul is no longer holding the reins, and we need to look at the family who is, to hold them accountable.
My blog is not a forum for gossip. My only purpose in presenting the following information is to call all Christians to unite and plead with Ligonier to clean up their inward workings, that their orthopraxy would match their orthodoxy once again! If you are a financial supporter of Ligonier, you have a double responsibility to contend with and confront Ligonier with their sin. Christians, we must unite together to call Ligonier to repentance. If Dr. Sproul has blessed you with his ministry, you owe it to him to gently restore this ministry to a place of righteousness once again.
Ryan Dick is the son of Tim Dick, who is the President of Ligonier Ministries, a position which should be held to the standards of "elder" in the Bible. Ryan is also the grandson of Dr. RC Sproul, who is an elder both in his church and in his ministry, Ligonier. Ryan lives at home with both his father and his grandfather, which make them doubly accountable for him and his actions. Scripture is very plain when it tells us that the qualifications for an elder is one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence. This article will show if Tim Dick and Dr. RC Sproul are qualified in this area.
Ryan is also an employee at Ligonier and has been during the entire time period of his posts that I have copied here. I am including the dates and his My Space page here as well. If you were a donor to Ligonier at any time during the last couple years, you will get an opportunity to see how your donor money is being used to pay this young man's salary.
All his comments here were made during the time frame of his employment at Ligonier. I wonder how many of them were actually posted AT work? Sabrina (his girlfriend) sent this comment to Ryan on 5/5/06: "What are you doing on myspace at work? Hmmm..."
My blog is not a forum for gossip. My only purpose in presenting the following information is to call all Christians to unite and plead with Ligonier to clean up their inward workings, that their orthopraxy would match their orthodoxy once again! If you are a financial supporter of Ligonier, you have a double responsibility to contend with and confront Ligonier with their sin. Christians, we must unite together to call Ligonier to repentance. If Dr. Sproul has blessed you with his ministry, you owe it to him to gently restore this ministry to a place of righteousness once again.
Ryan Dick is the son of Tim Dick, who is the President of Ligonier Ministries, a position which should be held to the standards of "elder" in the Bible. Ryan is also the grandson of Dr. RC Sproul, who is an elder both in his church and in his ministry, Ligonier. Ryan lives at home with both his father and his grandfather, which make them doubly accountable for him and his actions. Scripture is very plain when it tells us that the qualifications for an elder is one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence. This article will show if Tim Dick and Dr. RC Sproul are qualified in this area.
Ryan is also an employee at Ligonier and has been during the entire time period of his posts that I have copied here. I am including the dates and his My Space page here as well. If you were a donor to Ligonier at any time during the last couple years, you will get an opportunity to see how your donor money is being used to pay this young man's salary.
All his comments here were made during the time frame of his employment at Ligonier. I wonder how many of them were actually posted AT work? Sabrina (his girlfriend) sent this comment to Ryan on 5/5/06: "What are you doing on myspace at work? Hmmm..."
While there are other sites that have dealt with Tim Dick personally, this particular article is written to expose the wickedness in Ryan Dick’s heart. Of course, we all have wicked hearts, but there are limits as to the exercise of them.
As you read these comments, please see if these show a son who is reverent. Is he reverent to God? His father? His grandfather? Girls? His job? Ligonier? If you are financially supporting Ligonier Ministries, you need to be aware that you are paying this young man’s salary by your gift to the Lord. Is the father of this young ruling his own house well? Is the grandfather of this young man ruling his own house well? Who is holding them accountable?
What is even more important is that this young man seems to think that he will take over Ligonier some day. This is an OUTRAGE! The following is a cleaned up version of Ryan’s comments online so that it will not be offensive in language, but you should feel great moral outrage after you read these. I have linked to all his comments directly; you can check the threads from there if you feel the need. I wouldn’t recommend it.
(Update: The links were taken down immediately after I posted this article.) Why were these links taken down? Why was Ryan's My Space page taken down? While these comments have been removed, there is certainly no evidence of repentance.
First thread: Someone is giving away free auto stickers and asks people who want them to just reply with their name, address, and what color they want. This is the one post you will want to click on to verify who aframdw says he is.
aframdw: Ryan Dick
2741 Deer Berry Ct.
Longwood Fl 32779
Blue
This is his signature block. If you can’t read it, just know that it’s not very nice.
I love you Sabrina...
1f u c4n r34d th1s
u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Thread: A girl gets drunk and throws up in a boy’s car and causes a lot of damage. The boy wants her to pay for the damages.
5/9/06 aframdw: He** yah make that b**** pay....If it happend to me i wouldnt care if i had the money to pay for it my self **** that i would make the person who trashed my car pay for it....**** i would tell the mom fine see you in court...i wouldnt care if it was the civic or one of the lexus'....How old is she
Thread: About cars.
2/8/06 aframdw: I can say the same thing "just wait" im going to be taken over a family company and i will be able to get what ever car i want when im older if thats the route i choose....But im not sure if thats what i want so there for i dont dream about it now or brag about it or say what im going to get i just keep my mouth shut drive my lil civic and pimp the FAMILY CARS when i wana look fly in a baller car...and i dont lie either i tell ppl its not mine....Just dont talk about it untill you get it thats all u have to do
What is even more important is that this young man seems to think that he will take over Ligonier some day. This is an OUTRAGE! The following is a cleaned up version of Ryan’s comments online so that it will not be offensive in language, but you should feel great moral outrage after you read these. I have linked to all his comments directly; you can check the threads from there if you feel the need. I wouldn’t recommend it.
(Update: The links were taken down immediately after I posted this article.) Why were these links taken down? Why was Ryan's My Space page taken down? While these comments have been removed, there is certainly no evidence of repentance.
First thread: Someone is giving away free auto stickers and asks people who want them to just reply with their name, address, and what color they want. This is the one post you will want to click on to verify who aframdw says he is.
aframdw: Ryan Dick
2741 Deer Berry Ct.
Longwood Fl 32779
Blue
This is his signature block. If you can’t read it, just know that it’s not very nice.
I love you Sabrina...
1f u c4n r34d th1s
u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Thread: A girl gets drunk and throws up in a boy’s car and causes a lot of damage. The boy wants her to pay for the damages.
5/9/06 aframdw: He** yah make that b**** pay....If it happend to me i wouldnt care if i had the money to pay for it my self **** that i would make the person who trashed my car pay for it....**** i would tell the mom fine see you in court...i wouldnt care if it was the civic or one of the lexus'....How old is she
Thread: About cars.
2/8/06 aframdw: I can say the same thing "just wait" im going to be taken over a family company and i will be able to get what ever car i want when im older if thats the route i choose....But im not sure if thats what i want so there for i dont dream about it now or brag about it or say what im going to get i just keep my mouth shut drive my lil civic and pimp the FAMILY CARS when i wana look fly in a baller car...and i dont lie either i tell ppl its not mine....Just dont talk about it untill you get it thats all u have to do
Another thread about buying cars.
4/20/06 aframdw: Dude the way you work the floor model is buy the warrenty on it and then you just have to know how to make it not work without making it look obvious then they give you the new model...
Thread: What would you guys think about this for an offical meet spot (started by aframdw)
2/28/05 aframdw #1: Its just an idea in the works but its got a good chance........What would you guys think about an offical meet spot my dad talked about buyn a warehouse or parking area to make an officle meet and show spot so that we dont have to have hassles of rice and fights and b/s and we would open a small restraunt as well or a lil burger stand thing.....anyways if it was just like a 1.00 a week per person to come chill and we would have security to make sure nothing goes wrong and we would host big shows there as well....Just let me know what u think.......Its just a thought right now but he would do it trust me I need to be able to show him what kind of turn out we could have weekly and monthly so anyways thats it..
3/9/05 aframdw #9: goes to keeping the place in shape and well operated.......Unless my dad changes his mind and does it for free........But one prob is no one is responding on the sites i put it up on i have to show him we can have alot of ppl there and so far its not working.....Its alot of money for him to put into a place and then not have anyone come out
3/10/05 aframdw #19: Well if we dont get a prop just for this we already have alot of office property that we own and could use and we just bought 43 acers for a college we are starting that have some sweet spots for photos.........So no matter what we can have a place.....Only thing wrong with those two places are ones in lakemary and one is buy the seminole town center and i dont think ppl would want to go to them btu they would be free i think
Other person asks: wait if your dad owns a lot of office property, why not ask him if we can use a parking lot that he owns?
3/22/05 aframdw #24: Thats what we are leaning to since no one is really responding but its more of a liability thing for that....It will take more work...And there would defffff be nooooo burn outs........
3/22/05 aframdw #26: Well i think there is a way to get a tax break for him if he buys a prop for us
3/23/05 aframdw #29: not in it for the money......Its to give us a place to chill in peace
4/9/05 aframdw #35: im going to see if we can meet at his office for now...But i also need to talk to eric and see if he would want to
4/26/05 aframdw #42: i just need eric to tell me if he wants me to talk to my dad about using our office or not
5/9/05 aframdw #45: Well if we do it at the office it would prob be free but i have to talk to eric and my dad
1/23/06 aframdw #50: u wouldnt have to worry about other ppl coming it would only posted on the forums and most of us here know if someone is from the forums or not and its my prop so i can kick out who ever...
3/7/06 aframdw #56: I havent had time to work on it at all since i got moved up...But there is on thing for sure...I will not allow any rice or any dumb drivers what so ever with all the stuff that has been going on...And there are cameras everywhere so we would have it on tape if needed to turn someone in for burning out and messing up the black top....But anyways when i get a chance to work on it a little more i will...We are having our national conf. this week which means working 7am-11pm and 3,500 ppl coming
Other person: your place looks tight aframdw definitely "NO" dumb driver allowed to pass your gated house
3/19/06 aframdw #61: LoL i wouldnt hold it at either of my houses it would be at our office...
4/13/06 aframdw #67: Prob. Every month...I havent had time to anything right now b/c i am now the Asst. Event Planner and Meadia Relations so i have been really busy....Hey we just used sonnys 2 weeks ago
5/23/06 aframdw #75: Lake Mary....But so far right now i dont see when i would be able to set anything up....or have time and look at the legalities (<--spell?) with my dad. Im basically taking over the job i was sup to be the asst. for....Its good for me tho more pay :)
Thread: What would you guys think about this for an offical meet spot (started by aframdw)
2/28/05 aframdw #1: Its just an idea in the works but its got a good chance........What would you guys think about an offical meet spot my dad talked about buyn a warehouse or parking area to make an officle meet and show spot so that we dont have to have hassles of rice and fights and b/s and we would open a small restraunt as well or a lil burger stand thing.....anyways if it was just like a 1.00 a week per person to come chill and we would have security to make sure nothing goes wrong and we would host big shows there as well....Just let me know what u think.......Its just a thought right now but he would do it trust me I need to be able to show him what kind of turn out we could have weekly and monthly so anyways thats it..
3/9/05 aframdw #9: goes to keeping the place in shape and well operated.......Unless my dad changes his mind and does it for free........But one prob is no one is responding on the sites i put it up on i have to show him we can have alot of ppl there and so far its not working.....Its alot of money for him to put into a place and then not have anyone come out
3/10/05 aframdw #19: Well if we dont get a prop just for this we already have alot of office property that we own and could use and we just bought 43 acers for a college we are starting that have some sweet spots for photos.........So no matter what we can have a place.....Only thing wrong with those two places are ones in lakemary and one is buy the seminole town center and i dont think ppl would want to go to them btu they would be free i think
Other person asks: wait if your dad owns a lot of office property, why not ask him if we can use a parking lot that he owns?
3/22/05 aframdw #24: Thats what we are leaning to since no one is really responding but its more of a liability thing for that....It will take more work...And there would defffff be nooooo burn outs........
3/22/05 aframdw #26: Well i think there is a way to get a tax break for him if he buys a prop for us
3/23/05 aframdw #29: not in it for the money......Its to give us a place to chill in peace
4/9/05 aframdw #35: im going to see if we can meet at his office for now...But i also need to talk to eric and see if he would want to
4/26/05 aframdw #42: i just need eric to tell me if he wants me to talk to my dad about using our office or not
5/9/05 aframdw #45: Well if we do it at the office it would prob be free but i have to talk to eric and my dad
1/23/06 aframdw #50: u wouldnt have to worry about other ppl coming it would only posted on the forums and most of us here know if someone is from the forums or not and its my prop so i can kick out who ever...
3/7/06 aframdw #56: I havent had time to work on it at all since i got moved up...But there is on thing for sure...I will not allow any rice or any dumb drivers what so ever with all the stuff that has been going on...And there are cameras everywhere so we would have it on tape if needed to turn someone in for burning out and messing up the black top....But anyways when i get a chance to work on it a little more i will...We are having our national conf. this week which means working 7am-11pm and 3,500 ppl coming
Other person: your place looks tight aframdw definitely "NO" dumb driver allowed to pass your gated house
3/19/06 aframdw #61: LoL i wouldnt hold it at either of my houses it would be at our office...
4/13/06 aframdw #67: Prob. Every month...I havent had time to anything right now b/c i am now the Asst. Event Planner and Meadia Relations so i have been really busy....Hey we just used sonnys 2 weeks ago
5/23/06 aframdw #75: Lake Mary....But so far right now i dont see when i would be able to set anything up....or have time and look at the legalities (<--spell?) with my dad. Im basically taking over the job i was sup to be the asst. for....Its good for me tho more pay :)
Another thread about cars.
10/10/04 aframdw: Thats why im glad im selling it and getting a lexus so I wont be called rice by ppl that think they know what they are talking....Im going to talk down on all the ppl that i know that talked down on me b/c i drove a civic.....Nope im not that low
aframdw: And ur not (ugly gesture inserted here) Again thats why im glad im geting a lexus so i dont have to hear retarted coments
Thread: Pictures of naked women. I am posting the link, but I highly recommend Christians don’t look at the thread.
5/5/06 aframdw: LoL i opend it at work before i looked at the NWS part of the title o well
Thread: Talking about money.
Other person said: But its a fact that he makes more then you and me combined...a milionaire and counting.
11/3/04 aframdw #111: Maybe more than me yes but lol not in a few years when i take CEO of the family comp its a 12mill comp now and is sup to tripple in the next 3-5 years ..........So yah he makes more than me but i bet my gpa makes more and my dads pretty close.............So dont count ur cookies on that one
Other person: Wait wait wait... let me get this right..Your family owns a $12,000,000 company right now, and in the next 3 to 5 years it's going to be worth $36,000,000+, and you drive a ****ing $12,000 Honda Civic?
11/4/04 aframdw #119: Ummm YAh i do and i did it buy choice....You got a prob with that...? just b/c we have money doesnt mean i have to flaunt it i was planing on doing a bunch of other stuff to it but its just a pain in the *** thats why im getting a lexus I also never got a nice car in hs b/c i was sick of allways being the rich boy even tho i still got crap cuz i got a diff car every year to year and a half....Was going to get a 350z but i didnt get the 75% florida bright cuz i only went to the sat once and didnt care cuz i dont have to pay for college anyway....This time im buyn the car on my own with my own money so im more happy about it anywaysEveryone else in my family drives a lexus also....If you would like me to prove it come by to one of or all three of our houses there is one in lakemary one in seminole and one in deland ill give you a tour of them if you would like or come by and see the company if you would like.....http://www.ligonier.org/ Man i love it when ppl talk so much **** to me and they dont know what they are talking about .....o and if u want my cell pm ill set up a date for u to come by when ever you want i can get off work when ever
Other person: How do your parents get so much money if the company is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT ORGANIZATION? Come on! Did you really think things through before you posted a link to "your" company? First of all, it's a public corporation, which means you can't just take over. Second of all, I found this in your annual report. "Ligonier Ministries, inc (the Ministry) is a not-for-profit corporation that operates as a educational organization." I just am confused how you complain about the miseries of being a "rich boy" and then flaunt it all over OF how rich you are. And come to find out, it's all a front anyway. "Your" corporation is DONATION based- you ask religious christians to give you money so that you can "awaken as many people as possible to the holiness of God by proclaiming, teaching, and defending God's holiness in all its fullness."
11/4/04 aframdw #125: Well no i dont flaunt it around sorry this is the first time i have every talked about it and yah its a non profit and to make as much money that we do there is other things we do besides lig IF U HAVE ANY IDEA WHO RC is then you would know that.....ITS a front come over to my house i bet i could fit 2 of urs into just one of mine......Yall are some funny *** ppl and if ur a gurl u got a big *** mouth.....Yall talk some funny ****....COme over b4 u talk **** u have no idea
Other person: Wow, you know, I really don't know who RC is, so I guess I'm just dumb. But honestly, I expected better from the person who is getting ready to take over a multimillion dollar non-profit organization that helps spread the word about Christianity and proclaim the holiness of God. I mean, maybe I'm wrong (I'm only Jewish after all) but I thought Christians were supposed to be kind, modest, gracious people. Honestly, I don't care how big or small your house is. Only god can judge you, right?
11/4/04 aframdw #131: Getting ready lol no i have awhile years....And im a more down to earth normal person just cuz im christian doesnt mean i have to act perf and wear all white and never say a bad word thats where ppl have the wrong view......
Thread: Jobs.
Other person: Yeah i do.. I'm a rent-a-pig just started like a week ago because my last post fired me because i was always watching dvd's on my laptop If it weren't my dads company i wouldn't be able to work anywhere because i tend to slack off
11/5/04 aframdw: LoL same here that and im allways about an hr to 2hr late lol...Yah i saw u the other day i was taken my brothers friend home in my lil brothers car...(gray 03 altima) Ill stop buy sometime and check out ur car cuz my gf loves supras and i dont know anyoen that has one anymore...If thats cool with u lol
aframdw: And ur not (ugly gesture inserted here) Again thats why im glad im geting a lexus so i dont have to hear retarted coments
Thread: Pictures of naked women. I am posting the link, but I highly recommend Christians don’t look at the thread.
5/5/06 aframdw: LoL i opend it at work before i looked at the NWS part of the title o well
Thread: Talking about money.
Other person said: But its a fact that he makes more then you and me combined...a milionaire and counting.
11/3/04 aframdw #111: Maybe more than me yes but lol not in a few years when i take CEO of the family comp its a 12mill comp now and is sup to tripple in the next 3-5 years ..........So yah he makes more than me but i bet my gpa makes more and my dads pretty close.............So dont count ur cookies on that one
Other person: Wait wait wait... let me get this right..Your family owns a $12,000,000 company right now, and in the next 3 to 5 years it's going to be worth $36,000,000+, and you drive a ****ing $12,000 Honda Civic?
11/4/04 aframdw #119: Ummm YAh i do and i did it buy choice....You got a prob with that...? just b/c we have money doesnt mean i have to flaunt it i was planing on doing a bunch of other stuff to it but its just a pain in the *** thats why im getting a lexus I also never got a nice car in hs b/c i was sick of allways being the rich boy even tho i still got crap cuz i got a diff car every year to year and a half....Was going to get a 350z but i didnt get the 75% florida bright cuz i only went to the sat once and didnt care cuz i dont have to pay for college anyway....This time im buyn the car on my own with my own money so im more happy about it anywaysEveryone else in my family drives a lexus also....If you would like me to prove it come by to one of or all three of our houses there is one in lakemary one in seminole and one in deland ill give you a tour of them if you would like or come by and see the company if you would like.....http://www.ligonier.org/ Man i love it when ppl talk so much **** to me and they dont know what they are talking about .....o and if u want my cell pm ill set up a date for u to come by when ever you want i can get off work when ever
Other person: How do your parents get so much money if the company is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT ORGANIZATION? Come on! Did you really think things through before you posted a link to "your" company? First of all, it's a public corporation, which means you can't just take over. Second of all, I found this in your annual report. "Ligonier Ministries, inc (the Ministry) is a not-for-profit corporation that operates as a educational organization." I just am confused how you complain about the miseries of being a "rich boy" and then flaunt it all over OF how rich you are. And come to find out, it's all a front anyway. "Your" corporation is DONATION based- you ask religious christians to give you money so that you can "awaken as many people as possible to the holiness of God by proclaiming, teaching, and defending God's holiness in all its fullness."
11/4/04 aframdw #125: Well no i dont flaunt it around sorry this is the first time i have every talked about it and yah its a non profit and to make as much money that we do there is other things we do besides lig IF U HAVE ANY IDEA WHO RC is then you would know that.....ITS a front come over to my house i bet i could fit 2 of urs into just one of mine......Yall are some funny *** ppl and if ur a gurl u got a big *** mouth.....Yall talk some funny ****....COme over b4 u talk **** u have no idea
Other person: Wow, you know, I really don't know who RC is, so I guess I'm just dumb. But honestly, I expected better from the person who is getting ready to take over a multimillion dollar non-profit organization that helps spread the word about Christianity and proclaim the holiness of God. I mean, maybe I'm wrong (I'm only Jewish after all) but I thought Christians were supposed to be kind, modest, gracious people. Honestly, I don't care how big or small your house is. Only god can judge you, right?
11/4/04 aframdw #131: Getting ready lol no i have awhile years....And im a more down to earth normal person just cuz im christian doesnt mean i have to act perf and wear all white and never say a bad word thats where ppl have the wrong view......
Thread: Jobs.
Other person: Yeah i do.. I'm a rent-a-pig just started like a week ago because my last post fired me because i was always watching dvd's on my laptop If it weren't my dads company i wouldn't be able to work anywhere because i tend to slack off
11/5/04 aframdw: LoL same here that and im allways about an hr to 2hr late lol...Yah i saw u the other day i was taken my brothers friend home in my lil brothers car...(gray 03 altima) Ill stop buy sometime and check out ur car cuz my gf loves supras and i dont know anyoen that has one anymore...If thats cool with u lol
Here is Ryan's My Space webpage, copied from the original on 6/4/06 as is (but cleaned up for Christian viewing). (Pictures don't show, but just for verification purposes here.)
Ryan (a.k.a - Party Boy)'s Interests
General
Well it was cars now im just going to get something nice to chill in. Soccer....Partys........Chillen with my girl and all my boys......Chillen with my girls gfs........Spending a sh** load of money where ever i go!
Ryan (a.k.a - Party Boy)'s Interests
General
Well it was cars now im just going to get something nice to chill in. Soccer....Partys........Chillen with my girl and all my boys......Chillen with my girls gfs........Spending a sh** load of money where ever i go!
Music
Rap/Hip-hop/Rock/country
Rap/Hip-hop/Rock/country
Movies (See image of Ryan at top of this post.)
Television
Movies and TV Napolean Dynamite, Old School, , Anchorman The legend of Ron Burgandy Family Guy, Futurama, THE SIMPSONS, South Park, Nip Tuck, South Park, COPS COPS COPS,
Television
Movies and TV Napolean Dynamite, Old School, , Anchorman The legend of Ron Burgandy Family Guy, Futurama, THE SIMPSONS, South Park, Nip Tuck, South Park, COPS COPS COPS,
Heroes
My dad b/c he showed me how to come up from working in a sh**y a** job to being C.E.O. of a mullty mill. company. He also showed me that everyone starts somewhere and we are all the same! I dont see him as much now but he is still cool as hell. And so is my Mom.
My dad b/c he showed me how to come up from working in a sh**y a** job to being C.E.O. of a mullty mill. company. He also showed me that everyone starts somewhere and we are all the same! I dont see him as much now but he is still cool as hell. And so is my Mom.
Ryan (a.k.a - Party Boy)'s Details
Status: In a Relationship
Here for: Friends
Orientation: Straight
Hometown: Lake Mary
Body type: 5' 7" / Average
Ethnicity: White / Caucasian
Religion: Christian - other
Zodiac Sign: Aries
Smoke / Drink: No / Yes
Children: Someday
Education: In college
Tim Dick, what in the world are you thinking here? Should this person be working for you at Ligonier Ministries? Does this person have any business at all working in a Christian ministry anywhere? Tim, you need to get your son under control and you need to fire him ASAP!
RC Sproul, is this the legacy you are wanting to leave? This young man represents YOU! Since he is your grandson, we call on you now to fire this young man who is so totally irreverent to God and you and your ministry. Public relations? Please, RC.
Vesta Sproul and the rest of the board of directors, this man may be related by blood, but he is not what the Christian community needs to represent Christian ministry. We are abhorred by what we read. It is time for him to leave Ligonier.
Tim, RC, and Vesta, we plead with you for this young man’s soul. It is obvious that the holiness of God is not very important to him. Please invest your lives in him before it is too late.
Christians everywhere, please call Ligonier at 800-435-4343 and e-mail customerservice@ligonier.org and write to all the addresses I have posted in my original Contending'>article and express your outrage. We must unite together and bring restoration to this once-God-honoring ministry.
And everyone, please pray for this young man’s soul, for Ligonier, and for Christ to somehow be glorified in this situation.
Status: In a Relationship
Here for: Friends
Orientation: Straight
Hometown: Lake Mary
Body type: 5' 7" / Average
Ethnicity: White / Caucasian
Religion: Christian - other
Zodiac Sign: Aries
Smoke / Drink: No / Yes
Children: Someday
Education: In college
Tim Dick, what in the world are you thinking here? Should this person be working for you at Ligonier Ministries? Does this person have any business at all working in a Christian ministry anywhere? Tim, you need to get your son under control and you need to fire him ASAP!
RC Sproul, is this the legacy you are wanting to leave? This young man represents YOU! Since he is your grandson, we call on you now to fire this young man who is so totally irreverent to God and you and your ministry. Public relations? Please, RC.
Vesta Sproul and the rest of the board of directors, this man may be related by blood, but he is not what the Christian community needs to represent Christian ministry. We are abhorred by what we read. It is time for him to leave Ligonier.
Tim, RC, and Vesta, we plead with you for this young man’s soul. It is obvious that the holiness of God is not very important to him. Please invest your lives in him before it is too late.
Christians everywhere, please call Ligonier at 800-435-4343 and e-mail customerservice@ligonier.org and write to all the addresses I have posted in my original Contending'>article and express your outrage. We must unite together and bring restoration to this once-God-honoring ministry.
And everyone, please pray for this young man’s soul, for Ligonier, and for Christ to somehow be glorified in this situation.
Sep 27, 2006
Ligonier's Justification
I had a nice little chat with "Senior Management" at Ligonier on Monday afternoon, and I thought you readers would like to know about it. "Senior Management," or at least one of them, is John Duncan. He was patient with my questions and spoke with me for more than two hours. I was grateful for the time, because dealing with a real person is so much easier for me than with a nebulous entity like "Ligonier" - especially now that customer service has been forbidden to talk.
John was upset, however, that I had accused Ligonier of “deeds of darkness.” I explained that “deeds of darkness” is just another term for sin, and that we all sin, both believers and unbelievers alike. He did not think Ligonier had sinned in this matter with Frank Vance, however. I, of course, repeated I Corinthians 6 to him, about Christians not suing Christians, at which time he shocked me by saying that Frank Vance has never professed to be a Christian, so they were operating under the assumption that Frank Vance is not a believer, and therefore they had the right to sue him.
Let me stop here and say that even if Frank Vance were a lying Muslim, as Doug Wilson has concluded, the best thing Ligonier and Tim Dick could have done would be - nothing. Frank Vance was a “nobody” in the blogging world and in Reformed circles, so his little blip on the screen would have been nothing more than a fleeting rant. Nobody would really have cared much about what was happening inside Ligonier if Tim Dick hadn’t made a public spectacle of demanding his rights when somebody called him a name.
However, let’s get back to Ligonier’s and John Duncan’s justification for suing Frank Vance. John stated over and over and over again in our otherwise delightful conversation that Frank Vance had not professed to be a Christian. By the time we finished conversing, I decided that I needed to see for myself if that was indeed true.
As I was looking through various posts and comments, I noticed that many people didn’t use their real names. Being the story of the day, we all wonder who Frank Vance really is. I wonder who Passerby is on Frank’s site? I wonder who Hoping is on my site? I wonder who Charitable Onlooker and Practicing Attorney and Maggie and Wendi are? I don’t have any links to them and they don’t tell me their real names, so should I just discount all their comments? Why aren’t they forthright in telling their names as well? This is how the blog world works right now and we need to hold everyone to the same standard. Well, I may not know who Frank Vance is, but I think I do know who Passerby is, and that’s important. Frank told Passerby that he knew he was John Duncan, and neither Passerby nor John Duncan have refuted that. I mention this only because one commenter on my blog accused Charitable Onlooker of being “Senior Management” and there was a quick denial there.
Passerby has, however, posted this comment: “(please accept the anonymity of those of us who don’t want five blogs spending their days slandering us).”
Hang in there with me as I bring this all to my point. John Duncan repeatedly told me that Frank has never professed Christianity. John Duncan speaks exactly like Passerby and Hoping and has not refuted that he is Passerby or Hoping. Now I would like to bring you to another significant comment Passerby left on drbrooker.net on September 17th in speaking of Frank Vance.
“I am a senior manager at Ligonier. ,,, We have never encountered this degree of malice and distemper from a professing believer.”
John, you almost had me convinced in yesterday’s phone conversation.
What does Frank have to say about whether or not he is a believer? Here is a whole post about why it is biblically unlawful for Ligonier to sue him because Christians are not to sue other Christians. If Frank were not a believer, would he go to these extreme lengths to exposit Scripture on this point? He has quoted numerous Scriptures throughout his entire blog. He has made many references to Christianity, to the Reformed doctrine, and to Christians and churches. Is that how unbelievers generally talk? Personally, I’ve never heard unbelievers speak that way.
Here is a comment that Frank posted last week telling Passerby that perhaps Frank’s “own Pastor and Elders could have been party to a mediation process,” if Ligonier hadn’t already sued him in the first place. Last I checked, the Muslims don’t have “pastors” and “elders.” That sounds like a Christian church to me.
Frank once said, “"Through it all, at no time did Ligonier Ministries or Tim Dick ever admit that they had filed a lawsuit against me, a fellow Christian."
And Mike answered, “There is no solid reason to believe this; - The part about you being a Christian, that is. Your actions are inconsistent with such a statement.”
I guess Mike thinks Frank is a believer, too.
At no time did Ligonier ever ask, “Frank, are you a professing Christian? Are you a member of a Christian church? Could you share with us your testimony of how you came to faith in Christ?” Even now they’re not asking. It seems they’d rather not really know. They didn’t ask because they didn’t care. The only reason they seem to care now is because they’ve come under withering criticism for violating I Corinthians 6, and their only escape clause is if they can show that Frank is NOT a believer after all. I repeat, even if Frank were a Muslim, or some such unbeliever, is that truly a biblical justification for suing him? Aren’t there better ways to handle name calling?
Maybe Frank Vance’s “tone” is not what John Duncan would have used in a similar situation. But we cannot accuse someone of not being saved merely by their “tone.” Frank is a man who obviously spends much time in church and in the Word. I’m not sure I’ve ever come out on my site and quoted, “I am a Christian; therefore, you cannot sue me.” But with the amount of Scripture I’ve used, it ought to be obvious that I’m not an infidel. I’ve read your statement, John, “Senior Management,” and at no time do you profess to being a Christian either. You use the same phrases and terminology Frank has used throughout his site. Does that mean that you are a Christian because you use that terminology, but Frank can’t be one because he uses that same terminology?
In our conversation you came across as a kind man, John, but your justification will not wash with me. Shouldn't you and Tim Dick have shown this concern about whether or not Frank is a believer BEFORE you sued him?
John was upset, however, that I had accused Ligonier of “deeds of darkness.” I explained that “deeds of darkness” is just another term for sin, and that we all sin, both believers and unbelievers alike. He did not think Ligonier had sinned in this matter with Frank Vance, however. I, of course, repeated I Corinthians 6 to him, about Christians not suing Christians, at which time he shocked me by saying that Frank Vance has never professed to be a Christian, so they were operating under the assumption that Frank Vance is not a believer, and therefore they had the right to sue him.
Let me stop here and say that even if Frank Vance were a lying Muslim, as Doug Wilson has concluded, the best thing Ligonier and Tim Dick could have done would be - nothing. Frank Vance was a “nobody” in the blogging world and in Reformed circles, so his little blip on the screen would have been nothing more than a fleeting rant. Nobody would really have cared much about what was happening inside Ligonier if Tim Dick hadn’t made a public spectacle of demanding his rights when somebody called him a name.
However, let’s get back to Ligonier’s and John Duncan’s justification for suing Frank Vance. John stated over and over and over again in our otherwise delightful conversation that Frank Vance had not professed to be a Christian. By the time we finished conversing, I decided that I needed to see for myself if that was indeed true.
As I was looking through various posts and comments, I noticed that many people didn’t use their real names. Being the story of the day, we all wonder who Frank Vance really is. I wonder who Passerby is on Frank’s site? I wonder who Hoping is on my site? I wonder who Charitable Onlooker and Practicing Attorney and Maggie and Wendi are? I don’t have any links to them and they don’t tell me their real names, so should I just discount all their comments? Why aren’t they forthright in telling their names as well? This is how the blog world works right now and we need to hold everyone to the same standard. Well, I may not know who Frank Vance is, but I think I do know who Passerby is, and that’s important. Frank told Passerby that he knew he was John Duncan, and neither Passerby nor John Duncan have refuted that. I mention this only because one commenter on my blog accused Charitable Onlooker of being “Senior Management” and there was a quick denial there.
Passerby has, however, posted this comment: “(please accept the anonymity of those of us who don’t want five blogs spending their days slandering us).”
Hang in there with me as I bring this all to my point. John Duncan repeatedly told me that Frank has never professed Christianity. John Duncan speaks exactly like Passerby and Hoping and has not refuted that he is Passerby or Hoping. Now I would like to bring you to another significant comment Passerby left on drbrooker.net on September 17th in speaking of Frank Vance.
“I am a senior manager at Ligonier. ,,, We have never encountered this degree of malice and distemper from a professing believer.”
John, you almost had me convinced in yesterday’s phone conversation.
What does Frank have to say about whether or not he is a believer? Here is a whole post about why it is biblically unlawful for Ligonier to sue him because Christians are not to sue other Christians. If Frank were not a believer, would he go to these extreme lengths to exposit Scripture on this point? He has quoted numerous Scriptures throughout his entire blog. He has made many references to Christianity, to the Reformed doctrine, and to Christians and churches. Is that how unbelievers generally talk? Personally, I’ve never heard unbelievers speak that way.
Here is a comment that Frank posted last week telling Passerby that perhaps Frank’s “own Pastor and Elders could have been party to a mediation process,” if Ligonier hadn’t already sued him in the first place. Last I checked, the Muslims don’t have “pastors” and “elders.” That sounds like a Christian church to me.
Frank once said, “"Through it all, at no time did Ligonier Ministries or Tim Dick ever admit that they had filed a lawsuit against me, a fellow Christian."
And Mike answered, “There is no solid reason to believe this; - The part about you being a Christian, that is. Your actions are inconsistent with such a statement.”
I guess Mike thinks Frank is a believer, too.
At no time did Ligonier ever ask, “Frank, are you a professing Christian? Are you a member of a Christian church? Could you share with us your testimony of how you came to faith in Christ?” Even now they’re not asking. It seems they’d rather not really know. They didn’t ask because they didn’t care. The only reason they seem to care now is because they’ve come under withering criticism for violating I Corinthians 6, and their only escape clause is if they can show that Frank is NOT a believer after all. I repeat, even if Frank were a Muslim, or some such unbeliever, is that truly a biblical justification for suing him? Aren’t there better ways to handle name calling?
Maybe Frank Vance’s “tone” is not what John Duncan would have used in a similar situation. But we cannot accuse someone of not being saved merely by their “tone.” Frank is a man who obviously spends much time in church and in the Word. I’m not sure I’ve ever come out on my site and quoted, “I am a Christian; therefore, you cannot sue me.” But with the amount of Scripture I’ve used, it ought to be obvious that I’m not an infidel. I’ve read your statement, John, “Senior Management,” and at no time do you profess to being a Christian either. You use the same phrases and terminology Frank has used throughout his site. Does that mean that you are a Christian because you use that terminology, but Frank can’t be one because he uses that same terminology?
In our conversation you came across as a kind man, John, but your justification will not wash with me. Shouldn't you and Tim Dick have shown this concern about whether or not Frank is a believer BEFORE you sued him?
Eight Days and Counting!
Here is a comment “Law Dude” posted yesterday afternoon that I thought was worthy of a full post.
Law Dude said...
Mr. Vance, In all my years practicing law, I can't say as I've ever seen a case where a plaintiff published a written notice claiming they'd withdrawn their lawsuit when they hadn't even drawn up the motion to withdraw it, let alone submit the motion to the court. To see a Christian ministry engaging in this sort of dishonest behavior is scandalous.
I'm sure you are on top of this case but I just wanted to let you know that I just got off the phone with one of the judge's clerks. She confirmed that as of 4:30 today Ligonier still hasn't filed anything with the court to have the case dismissed. If others would like to verify it for themselves, it's all public information. Anyone can call the clerk and ask.
Case No. 06-CA-1669-16-K
Court Clerk's Phone: 407-665-4378
In my professional opinion I don't think Ligonier ever had any intention of withdrawing the case. I think what they were hoping to accomplish is to con you into believing that they withdrew the case so that you wouldn't pay attention to their continuing motions and ex parte hearings in court. The fact that just last Thursday they had another ex parte hearing with the judge to figure out how to legally effect service is rather strong evidence that they're not planning on dropping this case. It appears that they're still lying to the judge and claiming that there's no way of contacting you.
More than likely here's what Ligonier and their lawyers were hoping to pull off. Eventually, if you didn't respond. then they'd perhaps be able to get a default judgment against you. With that default judgment, then they could get your blog shut down and there goes your public forum and you'd have a hard time issuing a public statement on the deceptive way they went about getting a legal judgment against you. Very slick but also very unethical.
I'm going to make a point of calling the court every day until I know that the case has actually been dismissed. I also think it's important that this case be dismissed with prejudice. With prejudice means that it can't ever be brought again. I'd like to also suggest that your readers call Ligonier every day and ask why they still haven't filed anything with the court to withdrawn the lawsuit they publicly said they'd already withdrawn last week. Why is a donor funded Christian ministry publicly lying?
Jen here: I just called at 10 a.m. again today and the suit is still pending, still open. It has NOT been dropped, nor has a motion to drop it been filed. I happened to check Mapquest today to find out why it is taking so long for the papers to get from Ligonier’s attorneys’ office at 390 N. Orange Ave. in Orlando to the courthouse at 301 N. Park Ave. in Sanford. It is a distance of 23.9 miles, or 30 minutes as Mapquest predicts.
Let me see now. Ligonier wrote two statements on September 20, 2006, saying that “the complaint was withdrawn” (past tense), meaning that on or before September 20, 2006, Ligonier withdrew the legal complaint (which they still have not admitted was a lawsuit!). To be fair, they didn’t actually send out those statements until just after close of business Friday afternoon, September 22. Today is September 27, and there is STILL no motion filed to drop the suit.
This particular court opens the mail and processes walk-in papers by opening ALL mail each day as soon as it arrives and enters it as “received” in the computer on the day that they receive the paperwork. As of today, September 27, they still have not received anything from Ligonier’s attorneys.
Just how long does it take to go 23.9 miles, I wonder? Eight days and counting!
Update: Yes, it did take a full 8 days to go that 23.9 miles!
Law Dude said...
Mr. Vance, In all my years practicing law, I can't say as I've ever seen a case where a plaintiff published a written notice claiming they'd withdrawn their lawsuit when they hadn't even drawn up the motion to withdraw it, let alone submit the motion to the court. To see a Christian ministry engaging in this sort of dishonest behavior is scandalous.
I'm sure you are on top of this case but I just wanted to let you know that I just got off the phone with one of the judge's clerks. She confirmed that as of 4:30 today Ligonier still hasn't filed anything with the court to have the case dismissed. If others would like to verify it for themselves, it's all public information. Anyone can call the clerk and ask.
Case No. 06-CA-1669-16-K
Court Clerk's Phone: 407-665-4378
In my professional opinion I don't think Ligonier ever had any intention of withdrawing the case. I think what they were hoping to accomplish is to con you into believing that they withdrew the case so that you wouldn't pay attention to their continuing motions and ex parte hearings in court. The fact that just last Thursday they had another ex parte hearing with the judge to figure out how to legally effect service is rather strong evidence that they're not planning on dropping this case. It appears that they're still lying to the judge and claiming that there's no way of contacting you.
More than likely here's what Ligonier and their lawyers were hoping to pull off. Eventually, if you didn't respond. then they'd perhaps be able to get a default judgment against you. With that default judgment, then they could get your blog shut down and there goes your public forum and you'd have a hard time issuing a public statement on the deceptive way they went about getting a legal judgment against you. Very slick but also very unethical.
I'm going to make a point of calling the court every day until I know that the case has actually been dismissed. I also think it's important that this case be dismissed with prejudice. With prejudice means that it can't ever be brought again. I'd like to also suggest that your readers call Ligonier every day and ask why they still haven't filed anything with the court to withdrawn the lawsuit they publicly said they'd already withdrawn last week. Why is a donor funded Christian ministry publicly lying?
Jen here: I just called at 10 a.m. again today and the suit is still pending, still open. It has NOT been dropped, nor has a motion to drop it been filed. I happened to check Mapquest today to find out why it is taking so long for the papers to get from Ligonier’s attorneys’ office at 390 N. Orange Ave. in Orlando to the courthouse at 301 N. Park Ave. in Sanford. It is a distance of 23.9 miles, or 30 minutes as Mapquest predicts.
Let me see now. Ligonier wrote two statements on September 20, 2006, saying that “the complaint was withdrawn” (past tense), meaning that on or before September 20, 2006, Ligonier withdrew the legal complaint (which they still have not admitted was a lawsuit!). To be fair, they didn’t actually send out those statements until just after close of business Friday afternoon, September 22. Today is September 27, and there is STILL no motion filed to drop the suit.
This particular court opens the mail and processes walk-in papers by opening ALL mail each day as soon as it arrives and enters it as “received” in the computer on the day that they receive the paperwork. As of today, September 27, they still have not received anything from Ligonier’s attorneys.
Just how long does it take to go 23.9 miles, I wonder? Eight days and counting!
Update: Yes, it did take a full 8 days to go that 23.9 miles!
Sep 25, 2006
Those Who Confront LIgonier
Doug Phillips, who was my elder for several years, taught me that God’s Word addresses every situation in life, but that rather than looking for a single verse to support our “beliefs,” we must look at the whole counsel of God to determine precisely what God wants us to do and how we are to live our daily lives. As we consider this situation with Ligonier, I want to stay focused on our responsibility as Christians in these types of circumstances. Sola Scriptura.
If we are to develop a biblical worldview in life, it must differ from the world’s ways; as Christians, we should stand head and shoulders above the world in the way we conduct ourselves. Let’s take a look at a few of the world’s ways and see how we are doing.
“The West Point Military Academy has a Cadet Honor Code which is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions. An officer who is not trustworthy cannot be tolerated. USMA expects its graduates and cadets to commit to a lifetime of honorable living.
“A leader of character knows what is right, and possesses the moral courage to act on that knowledge. The principles of truthfulness, fairness, respect for others, and a personal commitment to maintaining values constitute that fundamental ideal known as the Spirit of the Code. A leader of character will apply the Spirit of the Code when making decisions involving ethical dilemmas.
“The Corps of Cadets bears the responsibility to resolve all possible violations of the Code through detailed, independent investigations and, when required, Honor Investigative Hearings. If a cadet (or anyone else) suspects that a violation occurred, then she or he is expected to approach the individual to clarify what happened (this step is optional). If that approach resolves the issue; i.e., the cadet making the allegation realizes no Honor violation occurred, then the issue will be dropped. However, if the person making the allegation still believes a violation may have occurred, she or he is obligated to inform a member of the Honor Committee within 24 hours. Failure to do so is considered "toleration," which is itself a violation of the Honor Code (the 24 hour rule is a guideline, cadets are not automatically in violation of the Code if they take more than 24 hours to report a violation). Once a suspected violation is reported to a member of the Honor Committee, it must be investigated.” This investigation then leads to several levels of hearings and judgments, similar to our judicial system.
The US Army drills and instills seven core values into all its soldiers:
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
These seven character traits are not only inculcated in and demanded of each soldier, but they are also a foundation for promotion. All officers and NCOs are rated annually on how they embody these seven character traits, which then forms a basis for potential promotion.
How are we as Christians doing so far? Are we standing head and shoulders above the world’s ways? Have we all demonstrated God’s ways in our handling of the Ligonier situation?
I was having a conversation with a friend once and she had asked me a question. She said, “I know you are just going to ask me, ‘What does the Bible say about it?’ but I don’t know what the Bible says about it!” Maybe that is where we need to start.
What does the Bible say about this situation with Ligonier? First, we need to understand that it is our responsibility as Christians to judge one another. This concept of judging others has been greatly taken out of context in our day. This Scripture is not referring to a pharisaical “holier-than-thou” type attitude where we either think we are better than others or we put it upon ourselves to tell other Christians all their sins. The Bible never tells us to do either of those. This type of judging regards things that pertain to this life, even the smallest matters, Scripture tells us; it is the settling of differences, as we clearly see the connection to the previous verse that tells us not to take matters to the world’s courts. Not only is this verse a clear prohibition of lawsuits, but it appears to ban all forms of using the world’s courts to settle matters between professing Christians, such as injunctions. So our first point is that Christians are to judge one another in ALL matters, big or small.
Next, we are told that we should have nothing to do with the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather to expose them. Since “deeds of darkness” is just another name for sin, we see that we are actually told to expose sin. There are certainly biblical times, ways, and means to do that, though, so we can’t put all our money on just this verse. But we do need to realize that there are definitely times to expose the evil “deeds of darkness.” We are having no problems following this Scripture lately!
Most people will probably think of Matthew 18 next, so let’s look briefly at its three steps.
First step: Go alone to the person who offended you.
Second step: Take one or two others with you. Notice that this verse does NOT say that the others must have witnessed the offense, but rather that they be witnesses to the conversation.
Third step: Tell it to the church. “Church” here does NOT necessarily mean the local body of believers you fellowship with. It MAY mean that, but it is not limited to that definition. The “church” here means to the extent that other believers are affected by this offense, or those who have a need to know.
Fourth step: Treat him like a heathen and a tax collector.
This situation with Ligonier and this verse reminds me of Martin Luther. Luther realized as he studied God’s Word for himself that he had a responsibility to judge what was going on in the church at that time. He realized that he had a responsibility to expose the “deeds of darkness” within the very church he loved. He also followed the steps of Matthew 18, but when he got to step number three, the “church” meant all the believers had a need to know. It is not easy to be the messenger and tell God’s own people to repent, and Martin Luther was not very well loved in his day. People today want to shoot the messengers that are exposing the “deeds of darkness” within Ligonier, but God clearly tells us in this Scripture to take it to the whole church, if necessary. To the extent that the sin is made public, exposure should be given to the same extent. I wonder where we would be if Luther didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to call the church to repentance.
Do we have an example in Scripture of exposing evil deeds to the whole church? This might seem like a really small matter, but it must have been important enough to not only confront the sinner, but also to take it to the whole church. Peter was eating with the Gentiles, as God had called him to do, but when James sent some visitors, Peter lost his first vision and withdrew from them and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. Paul says that he had to confront Peter to his face; but even that wasn’t enough. Paul then put it in writing for the whole church to see, for all time! Sometimes I’m glad I didn’t live in the Bible times, because I wouldn’t want my sin to go down in history for the whole world to continue to see for thousands of years! Anyway, Peter’s sin of fearing for his reputation doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to us, but Paul thought it serious enough to tell the whole church.
What is our attitude to be during all this exposure and confrontation? First, I think it’s important that we walk the very fine line of being as wise as serpents, yet as harmless as doves, since we are as sheep being sent out into the midst of wolves. I am not going to call anyone a wolf in this Ligonier situation, but let us say that God knows each of our hearts, and He knows His sheep, and He knows if there are any wolves. We do, however, bear a responsibility here to be wise in discerning when people are conducting themselves as Christians or not; the Bible says that we will know that they are Christians by their fruit, by the way they behave. While we are busy being wise, let us be just as busy being harmless. I fear there is much harm being done in this situation.
And not only are we to be harmless, but we are to restore those who are caught up in sin with a spirit of gentleness. You know, I think that old saying still rings true: You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar! When we put others on the defensive, why are we surprised when they defend themselves? This is certainly one of the hardest areas for me, but I truly desire to have a gentle spirit so that I may help bring restoration where there is still sin.
Sometimes as Christians we are called to confront sin in other believers. The Bible tells us that Christians are to judge between Christians, in both small and large matters; that we are to expose the “deeds of darkness;” that we are to follow the three steps listed in Matthew 18, which include telling it to as many Christians as it pertains to; to be as wise as serpents in being alert for wolves in our midst, yet harmless as doves in dealing with them; and to restore sinning believers in a spirit of gentleness. For those who are doing the confronting, let us remember to do it God’s way.
If we are to develop a biblical worldview in life, it must differ from the world’s ways; as Christians, we should stand head and shoulders above the world in the way we conduct ourselves. Let’s take a look at a few of the world’s ways and see how we are doing.
“The West Point Military Academy has a Cadet Honor Code which is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions. An officer who is not trustworthy cannot be tolerated. USMA expects its graduates and cadets to commit to a lifetime of honorable living.
“A leader of character knows what is right, and possesses the moral courage to act on that knowledge. The principles of truthfulness, fairness, respect for others, and a personal commitment to maintaining values constitute that fundamental ideal known as the Spirit of the Code. A leader of character will apply the Spirit of the Code when making decisions involving ethical dilemmas.
“The Corps of Cadets bears the responsibility to resolve all possible violations of the Code through detailed, independent investigations and, when required, Honor Investigative Hearings. If a cadet (or anyone else) suspects that a violation occurred, then she or he is expected to approach the individual to clarify what happened (this step is optional). If that approach resolves the issue; i.e., the cadet making the allegation realizes no Honor violation occurred, then the issue will be dropped. However, if the person making the allegation still believes a violation may have occurred, she or he is obligated to inform a member of the Honor Committee within 24 hours. Failure to do so is considered "toleration," which is itself a violation of the Honor Code (the 24 hour rule is a guideline, cadets are not automatically in violation of the Code if they take more than 24 hours to report a violation). Once a suspected violation is reported to a member of the Honor Committee, it must be investigated.” This investigation then leads to several levels of hearings and judgments, similar to our judicial system.
The US Army drills and instills seven core values into all its soldiers:
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
These seven character traits are not only inculcated in and demanded of each soldier, but they are also a foundation for promotion. All officers and NCOs are rated annually on how they embody these seven character traits, which then forms a basis for potential promotion.
How are we as Christians doing so far? Are we standing head and shoulders above the world’s ways? Have we all demonstrated God’s ways in our handling of the Ligonier situation?
I was having a conversation with a friend once and she had asked me a question. She said, “I know you are just going to ask me, ‘What does the Bible say about it?’ but I don’t know what the Bible says about it!” Maybe that is where we need to start.
What does the Bible say about this situation with Ligonier? First, we need to understand that it is our responsibility as Christians to judge one another. This concept of judging others has been greatly taken out of context in our day. This Scripture is not referring to a pharisaical “holier-than-thou” type attitude where we either think we are better than others or we put it upon ourselves to tell other Christians all their sins. The Bible never tells us to do either of those. This type of judging regards things that pertain to this life, even the smallest matters, Scripture tells us; it is the settling of differences, as we clearly see the connection to the previous verse that tells us not to take matters to the world’s courts. Not only is this verse a clear prohibition of lawsuits, but it appears to ban all forms of using the world’s courts to settle matters between professing Christians, such as injunctions. So our first point is that Christians are to judge one another in ALL matters, big or small.
Next, we are told that we should have nothing to do with the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather to expose them. Since “deeds of darkness” is just another name for sin, we see that we are actually told to expose sin. There are certainly biblical times, ways, and means to do that, though, so we can’t put all our money on just this verse. But we do need to realize that there are definitely times to expose the evil “deeds of darkness.” We are having no problems following this Scripture lately!
Most people will probably think of Matthew 18 next, so let’s look briefly at its three steps.
First step: Go alone to the person who offended you.
Second step: Take one or two others with you. Notice that this verse does NOT say that the others must have witnessed the offense, but rather that they be witnesses to the conversation.
Third step: Tell it to the church. “Church” here does NOT necessarily mean the local body of believers you fellowship with. It MAY mean that, but it is not limited to that definition. The “church” here means to the extent that other believers are affected by this offense, or those who have a need to know.
Fourth step: Treat him like a heathen and a tax collector.
This situation with Ligonier and this verse reminds me of Martin Luther. Luther realized as he studied God’s Word for himself that he had a responsibility to judge what was going on in the church at that time. He realized that he had a responsibility to expose the “deeds of darkness” within the very church he loved. He also followed the steps of Matthew 18, but when he got to step number three, the “church” meant all the believers had a need to know. It is not easy to be the messenger and tell God’s own people to repent, and Martin Luther was not very well loved in his day. People today want to shoot the messengers that are exposing the “deeds of darkness” within Ligonier, but God clearly tells us in this Scripture to take it to the whole church, if necessary. To the extent that the sin is made public, exposure should be given to the same extent. I wonder where we would be if Luther didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to call the church to repentance.
Do we have an example in Scripture of exposing evil deeds to the whole church? This might seem like a really small matter, but it must have been important enough to not only confront the sinner, but also to take it to the whole church. Peter was eating with the Gentiles, as God had called him to do, but when James sent some visitors, Peter lost his first vision and withdrew from them and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. Paul says that he had to confront Peter to his face; but even that wasn’t enough. Paul then put it in writing for the whole church to see, for all time! Sometimes I’m glad I didn’t live in the Bible times, because I wouldn’t want my sin to go down in history for the whole world to continue to see for thousands of years! Anyway, Peter’s sin of fearing for his reputation doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to us, but Paul thought it serious enough to tell the whole church.
What is our attitude to be during all this exposure and confrontation? First, I think it’s important that we walk the very fine line of being as wise as serpents, yet as harmless as doves, since we are as sheep being sent out into the midst of wolves. I am not going to call anyone a wolf in this Ligonier situation, but let us say that God knows each of our hearts, and He knows His sheep, and He knows if there are any wolves. We do, however, bear a responsibility here to be wise in discerning when people are conducting themselves as Christians or not; the Bible says that we will know that they are Christians by their fruit, by the way they behave. While we are busy being wise, let us be just as busy being harmless. I fear there is much harm being done in this situation.
And not only are we to be harmless, but we are to restore those who are caught up in sin with a spirit of gentleness. You know, I think that old saying still rings true: You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar! When we put others on the defensive, why are we surprised when they defend themselves? This is certainly one of the hardest areas for me, but I truly desire to have a gentle spirit so that I may help bring restoration where there is still sin.
Sometimes as Christians we are called to confront sin in other believers. The Bible tells us that Christians are to judge between Christians, in both small and large matters; that we are to expose the “deeds of darkness;” that we are to follow the three steps listed in Matthew 18, which include telling it to as many Christians as it pertains to; to be as wise as serpents in being alert for wolves in our midst, yet harmless as doves in dealing with them; and to restore sinning believers in a spirit of gentleness. For those who are doing the confronting, let us remember to do it God’s way.
Sep 21, 2006
Did Ligonier Ministries REALLY sue Frank Vance?
Brrring. Brrring. Brrring. (phone ringing at Ligonier Ministries, Inc.)
Ligonier: Thank you for calling Ligonier Ministries, the home of "Renewing Your Mind" with RC Sproul. … For all other inquiries, please press '5.'
Ligonier : Ligonier Ministries. How may we help you today?
Joe Christian: I have been a supporter of Ligonier for quite a while now, but I am a little concerned about what is being reported in the open press concerning Ligonier. Is it true that Ligonier has filed a lawsuit against a Christian?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: You can't comment -- does that mean there is a lawsuit but you can't comment or there is no lawsuit but you can't comment?
Ligonier : I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: It does seem there is a lawsuit. Can you tell me why Ligonier is suing a fellow believer when that is a clear violation of I Corinthians 6?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: Well, how about you personally? As a Christian, and I'm assuming you are a Christian since you work for a Christian ministry, don't you think you personally should take a stand when Scripture is being violated by a policy or action of that ministry?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian : Can't you just answer 'yes' or 'no?'
Ligonier : They won't let us say anything else. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Frustrated? Confused? Feel betrayed? Heard through the grapevine that Ligonier is denying the lawsuit? I did. I called to check and was told that no lawsuit had been filed. I called back and now they won't say anything. Don't know who's really telling the truth?
Well, it turns out that Ligonier did file suit against a Christian blogger. And we were able to track down a copy of it. It's right here, in black and white. Take a look at it for yourself. It's not very long.
What does it all mean in plain English? Well, it means that Ligonier as an organization, along with Tim Dick as an individual, filed a lawsuit against Frank Vance, a professing Christian, on August 25th for allegedly defaming them by the comments he made on his blog, Contending for the Truth. Tim Dick and Ligonier also ask the judge to act quickly to order Frank to stop saying bad things about Ligonier. They say the judge should issue this order quickly even without hearing Frank's side of the story because it's urgent and because they could not contact Frank to give him notice of the suit.
The above story is today’s version of events at Ligonier. To read last week’s version of events on the same subject, read here.
Once again, Ligonier, the Christian community calls upon your organization and the individuals responsible for this unbiblical lawsuit to repent. Dr. and Mrs. Sproul, Mr. Dick, board members, and any employee who has misinformed callers and supporters concerning the existence of this lawsuit, please, please repent of this latest transgression of God’s Holy Word, which we as Christians commonly call “lies.” For the sake of the gospel and for the holiness of God, please turn from the course you are on.
Ligonier: Thank you for calling Ligonier Ministries, the home of "Renewing Your Mind" with RC Sproul. … For all other inquiries, please press '5.'
Ligonier : Ligonier Ministries. How may we help you today?
Joe Christian: I have been a supporter of Ligonier for quite a while now, but I am a little concerned about what is being reported in the open press concerning Ligonier. Is it true that Ligonier has filed a lawsuit against a Christian?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: You can't comment -- does that mean there is a lawsuit but you can't comment or there is no lawsuit but you can't comment?
Ligonier : I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: It does seem there is a lawsuit. Can you tell me why Ligonier is suing a fellow believer when that is a clear violation of I Corinthians 6?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian: Well, how about you personally? As a Christian, and I'm assuming you are a Christian since you work for a Christian ministry, don't you think you personally should take a stand when Scripture is being violated by a policy or action of that ministry?
Ligonier: I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Joe Christian : Can't you just answer 'yes' or 'no?'
Ligonier : They won't let us say anything else. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org.
Frustrated? Confused? Feel betrayed? Heard through the grapevine that Ligonier is denying the lawsuit? I did. I called to check and was told that no lawsuit had been filed. I called back and now they won't say anything. Don't know who's really telling the truth?
Well, it turns out that Ligonier did file suit against a Christian blogger. And we were able to track down a copy of it. It's right here, in black and white. Take a look at it for yourself. It's not very long.
What does it all mean in plain English? Well, it means that Ligonier as an organization, along with Tim Dick as an individual, filed a lawsuit against Frank Vance, a professing Christian, on August 25th for allegedly defaming them by the comments he made on his blog, Contending for the Truth. Tim Dick and Ligonier also ask the judge to act quickly to order Frank to stop saying bad things about Ligonier. They say the judge should issue this order quickly even without hearing Frank's side of the story because it's urgent and because they could not contact Frank to give him notice of the suit.
The above story is today’s version of events at Ligonier. To read last week’s version of events on the same subject, read here.
Once again, Ligonier, the Christian community calls upon your organization and the individuals responsible for this unbiblical lawsuit to repent. Dr. and Mrs. Sproul, Mr. Dick, board members, and any employee who has misinformed callers and supporters concerning the existence of this lawsuit, please, please repent of this latest transgression of God’s Holy Word, which we as Christians commonly call “lies.” For the sake of the gospel and for the holiness of God, please turn from the course you are on.
Sep 18, 2006
My Tribute to Ligonier
When we were still on a spiritual “milk” diet, God brought Dr. RC Sproul into our lives to put some spiritual “meat” on our bones. He taught us many things that we had never heard before, but had been desperately hungering for: holiness and truth. It was as if we stepped out of the Dark Ages and into His marvelous light! RC taught us the foundations of reformed doctrine without being extreme on either side. He taught us the doctrines of Grace in a clear, biblical, and gracious manner. We consider him to be a spiritual father to us, of sorts. And for that, we are eternally grateful.
Likewise, we have visited St. Andrews Chapel several times while traveling, the church where Dr. RC Sproul is the teaching elder. This is, by far, the most worshipful church we have ever been in. Everything about both the outward structure and the format and form of the service is truly glorifying to God. We were filled with a quiet sense of awe as we entered the sanctuary filled with people, quietly listening to classical arrangements from a strings ensemble while each was preparing their hearts for worship. The sanctuary is laid out in the shape of the cross, with an elevated pulpit in the center. Dr. Sproul explained that the only thing that was truly elevated there was the Word of God, that the Word of God was central to worship in that place; and it truly was, the times we were there. The incredible biblical art and the glorious classical God-honoring music truly created an atmosphere that would lead each one into worship that glorified God.
As I consider what is happening currently in Ligonier, I want to hold them accountable for the current sin that seems to permeate certain aspects of this Christian ministry, but I always want to give credit where credit is due. I pray that Ligonier as a ministry will repent and set the highest of standards for Christian ministries everywhere.
We are praying for you, Dr. Sproul, and your ministry, Ligonier.
Likewise, we have visited St. Andrews Chapel several times while traveling, the church where Dr. RC Sproul is the teaching elder. This is, by far, the most worshipful church we have ever been in. Everything about both the outward structure and the format and form of the service is truly glorifying to God. We were filled with a quiet sense of awe as we entered the sanctuary filled with people, quietly listening to classical arrangements from a strings ensemble while each was preparing their hearts for worship. The sanctuary is laid out in the shape of the cross, with an elevated pulpit in the center. Dr. Sproul explained that the only thing that was truly elevated there was the Word of God, that the Word of God was central to worship in that place; and it truly was, the times we were there. The incredible biblical art and the glorious classical God-honoring music truly created an atmosphere that would lead each one into worship that glorified God.
As I consider what is happening currently in Ligonier, I want to hold them accountable for the current sin that seems to permeate certain aspects of this Christian ministry, but I always want to give credit where credit is due. I pray that Ligonier as a ministry will repent and set the highest of standards for Christian ministries everywhere.
We are praying for you, Dr. Sproul, and your ministry, Ligonier.
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